4 ms·

Employment contracts will prevent mass shootings?

by hash872 4y ago

ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
Employment does
- luckylion 4y ago
  Unemployment rates: USA: 3.4% Spain: 13.1% Greece: 11.6% Italy: 7.8% Cypus: 7.7% [...] Malta: 3.2% Germany: 2.9% Poland: 2.9% Czechia: 2.3% That'll be some gymnastics.
  - piva00 4y ago
    If you are unemployed in most EU countries you are not at risk of dying because you can't afford healthcare, food and shelter. Less desperation for the unemployed is better for society. Employment security also helps mental health, you don't need to live in pure anxiety and fear that someone else might take your job next week.
  - hash872 4y ago
    Eh, to be fair to his argument, 'unemployment' is just a survey measuring who is actively looking for new employment but can't find it. Most developed countries have a higher rate of prime-age (25-60) employment than the US. I like that metric better, you're just looking nationally at what % of adults are employed overall
  - slowmovintarget 4y ago
    Those are the official numbers after the US changed the way it counts unemployment so as to appear better. If you go back to the way unemployment was counted before President G. W. Bush, you end up with higher rates. The current U-6 unemployment rate in the U.S. is 6.6%. That adds back in discouraged workers, workers on long-term unemployment, and workers on part-time employment because of the economy.
    - carlosjobim 4y ago
      European governments commit massive fraud with how they count their unemployment numbers as well, so comparisons are difficult.
  - ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
    USA unemployment is 7,4% [1]. Spain, Greece, Italy's unemployment is highly seasonal - in summer it drops to almost 0%, meaning the majority of the population has some (untaxed) income to keep them afloat through the entire year. [1] https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_u_6_unemployment_rate_unadjusted https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_u_6_unemployment_rate_unad...
    - luckylion 4y ago
      > USA unemployment is 7,4% The not commonly used U-6 is, yeah, but even your link mentions that U-3 is commonly used, and why would you compare different unemployment rates between countries? Here [1] is Destatis from December 2022 with data for all EU countries and the US for comparison. > Spain, Greece, Italy's unemployment is highly seasonal - in summer it drops to almost 0% In June 2022, Spain had 12.6% (2021: 15.3%), Greece had 12.3% (15.0%) and Italy 8.1% (9.4%), see [2] from Eurostat. Is this going to turn into a session of frantic googling to find numbers that support your claim that you based upon feelings and prejudices instead of facts? [1] https://www.destatis.de/Europa/EN/Topic/Population-Labour-Social-Issues/Labour-market/EULabourMarketCrisis.html https://www.destatis.de/Europa/EN/Topic/Population-Labour-So... [2] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/14675433/3-01082022-AP-EN.pdf/6d7f1ff4-eea6-1245-0002-ed017c302c7f https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/14675433/3-0...
      - throwawaycopter 4y ago
        It doesn't really matter either way. Unemployed people in most EU countries do have access to healthcare, benefits that keep them from starving, etc. Not a paradise, but not a hellhole.
        luckylion 4y ago
        Certainly, though that typically depends on where you live, and as a general rule, social security gets better the further north you go, and that's also where unemployment is low, while the situation looks tougher in Spain, Italy or Greece. But that's besides the point, the claim was that employment has something to do with it, not the extent of the welfare state.
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  Yes. You have less to lose. Mass shootings happen because people get to the extreme point of disconnection where they just say "burn it all, I'm going out in a blaze..." These aren't people that feel connected to anything (coworkers, family, schoolmates, teams). Even if other things are lacking, employment can bring connection.
jeromegv 4y ago
In general Europe tends to provide a stronger social net. Not just labor laws but what happens when you are out of job, have disability, etc. Some might argue that the poor are less poor and the rich are less rich (less disparity) which overall contributes to a better social climate and better mental health. Would you rather be sick and poor in the US or in a more socialist country? Of course there's nothing like being wealthy in the US but if you fall behind in the US, there's definitely less support for you and might make people more.. desperate. US also has the highest incarcerated rate in the western world for a reason. Those are all opinions and I have nothing to quote, but it's hard to argue that there is a strong difference in how societies are structured and what support they provide to their citizens to live a better life
- wg0 4y ago
  Better work life balance as well may I add. It isn't appreciated that you're working long hours. Clock strikes 6 and day is over. "If something isn't done within working hours, either it wasn't meant to be and was underestimated or you're not working effectively" sort of.
- hotpotamus 4y ago
  > Of course there's nothing like being wealthy in the US This is one of the interesting aspects of inequality that I've found. Do the rich in the US actually seem fabulously happy to you? Like does Elon Musk demanding that Twitter engineers add a 1000 multiplier to his popularity score seem like the actions of a happy man? I'm sure they are happier than the poor, but it may be that massive inequality in societies actually has negative effects on those at the top as well. This is actually what Robert Sapolsky found in his studies of primate societies, and while humans might not just be any other primate society, we are that as well.
  - ben_w 4y ago
    > Like does Elon Musk demanding that Twitter engineers add a 1000 multiplier to his popularity score seem like the actions of a happy man? Not at all, but my suspicion is that you may have causality backwards there. I suspect that Musk is driven to do what he does by his various personality issues, rather than his personality issues being caused by his wealth. I can understand not being satisfied with mere early retirement after PayPal, but simultaneously gambling on Tesla and SpaceX is extremely unusual, and very little about Hyperloop/TBC, Neuralink, and the purchase of Twitter really makes much sense except as a desire to be seen as a modern Da Vinci. I've heard him described as narcissistic; I'm not qualified to say if he is that clinically or merely to the extent of an actor or YouTuber, but he certainly doesn't seem like he'll ever really feel secure in his connection to others. I'm still not sure what to make of his clear humility about the success prospects for each new rocket's first launch, vs. the apparent hubris in every other field.
martin_a 4y ago
Social security nets probably do.
pjc50 4y ago
People are arguing this in the comments, but: no, obviously not, mass shootings are not directly anything to do with employment, but they are a policy choice which Europeans and Americans cannot understand each other over.
PaywallBuster 4y ago
half the mass shootings are done by young/students? South europe countries have ~ 50% youth unemployment and very little prospects however there's no mass shootings?
- freitzkriesler2 4y ago
  No mass shootings, but do look up knife crime and sexual assault statistics. Different implements, same outcomes unfortunately. And youth unemployment is one of the problems that Europe has that America doesn't have nearly as badly.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    > No mass shootings, but do look up knife crime and sexual assault statistics. You can be certain that has nothing to do with unemployment.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Last time I looked US gun+knife crime had far more victims than European knife crime. Even in Glasgow, former knife crime capital of Europe, which had a very successful violence reduction project. https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-country/ https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-co... : "the most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself." US crime is high, but falling from its very high peak, more or less independently of who's President.

Employment contracts will prevent mass shootings?

ggeorgovassilis 4y ago

Employment does

luckylion 4y ago
Unemployment rates: USA: 3.4% Spain: 13.1% Greece: 11.6% Italy: 7.8% Cypus: 7.7% [...] Malta: 3.2% Germany: 2.9% Poland: 2.9% Czechia: 2.3% That'll be some gymnastics.
- piva00 4y ago
  If you are unemployed in most EU countries you are not at risk of dying because you can't afford healthcare, food and shelter. Less desperation for the unemployed is better for society. Employment security also helps mental health, you don't need to live in pure anxiety and fear that someone else might take your job next week.
- hash872 4y ago
  Eh, to be fair to his argument, 'unemployment' is just a survey measuring who is actively looking for new employment but can't find it. Most developed countries have a higher rate of prime-age (25-60) employment than the US. I like that metric better, you're just looking nationally at what % of adults are employed overall
- slowmovintarget 4y ago
  Those are the official numbers after the US changed the way it counts unemployment so as to appear better. If you go back to the way unemployment was counted before President G. W. Bush, you end up with higher rates. The current U-6 unemployment rate in the U.S. is 6.6%. That adds back in discouraged workers, workers on long-term unemployment, and workers on part-time employment because of the economy.
  - carlosjobim 4y ago
    European governments commit massive fraud with how they count their unemployment numbers as well, so comparisons are difficult.
- ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
  USA unemployment is 7,4% [1]. Spain, Greece, Italy's unemployment is highly seasonal - in summer it drops to almost 0%, meaning the majority of the population has some (untaxed) income to keep them afloat through the entire year. [1] https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_u_6_unemployment_rate_unadjusted https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_u_6_unemployment_rate_unad...
  - luckylion 4y ago
    > USA unemployment is 7,4% The not commonly used U-6 is, yeah, but even your link mentions that U-3 is commonly used, and why would you compare different unemployment rates between countries? Here [1] is Destatis from December 2022 with data for all EU countries and the US for comparison. > Spain, Greece, Italy's unemployment is highly seasonal - in summer it drops to almost 0% In June 2022, Spain had 12.6% (2021: 15.3%), Greece had 12.3% (15.0%) and Italy 8.1% (9.4%), see [2] from Eurostat. Is this going to turn into a session of frantic googling to find numbers that support your claim that you based upon feelings and prejudices instead of facts? [1] https://www.destatis.de/Europa/EN/Topic/Population-Labour-Social-Issues/Labour-market/EULabourMarketCrisis.html https://www.destatis.de/Europa/EN/Topic/Population-Labour-So... [2] https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/14675433/3-01082022-AP-EN.pdf/6d7f1ff4-eea6-1245-0002-ed017c302c7f https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/14675433/3-0...
    - throwawaycopter 4y ago
      It doesn't really matter either way. Unemployed people in most EU countries do have access to healthcare, benefits that keep them from starving, etc. Not a paradise, but not a hellhole.
      - luckylion 4y ago
        Certainly, though that typically depends on where you live, and as a general rule, social security gets better the further north you go, and that's also where unemployment is low, while the situation looks tougher in Spain, Italy or Greece. But that's besides the point, the claim was that employment has something to do with it, not the extent of the welfare state.
slowmovintarget 4y ago
Yes. You have less to lose. Mass shootings happen because people get to the extreme point of disconnection where they just say "burn it all, I'm going out in a blaze..." These aren't people that feel connected to anything (coworkers, family, schoolmates, teams). Even if other things are lacking, employment can bring connection.

jeromegv 4y ago

In general Europe tends to provide a stronger social net. Not just labor laws but what happens when you are out of job, have disability, etc. Some might argue that the poor are less poor and the rich are less rich (less disparity) which overall contributes to a better social climate and better mental health. Would you rather be sick and poor in the US or in a more socialist country? Of course there's nothing like being wealthy in the US but if you fall behind in the US, there's definitely less support for you and might make people more.. desperate. US also has the highest incarcerated rate in the western world for a reason. Those are all opinions and I have nothing to quote, but it's hard to argue that there is a strong difference in how societies are structured and what support they provide to their citizens to live a better life

wg0 4y ago
Better work life balance as well may I add. It isn't appreciated that you're working long hours. Clock strikes 6 and day is over. "If something isn't done within working hours, either it wasn't meant to be and was underestimated or you're not working effectively" sort of.
hotpotamus 4y ago
> Of course there's nothing like being wealthy in the US This is one of the interesting aspects of inequality that I've found. Do the rich in the US actually seem fabulously happy to you? Like does Elon Musk demanding that Twitter engineers add a 1000 multiplier to his popularity score seem like the actions of a happy man? I'm sure they are happier than the poor, but it may be that massive inequality in societies actually has negative effects on those at the top as well. This is actually what Robert Sapolsky found in his studies of primate societies, and while humans might not just be any other primate society, we are that as well.
- ben_w 4y ago
  > Like does Elon Musk demanding that Twitter engineers add a 1000 multiplier to his popularity score seem like the actions of a happy man? Not at all, but my suspicion is that you may have causality backwards there. I suspect that Musk is driven to do what he does by his various personality issues, rather than his personality issues being caused by his wealth. I can understand not being satisfied with mere early retirement after PayPal, but simultaneously gambling on Tesla and SpaceX is extremely unusual, and very little about Hyperloop/TBC, Neuralink, and the purchase of Twitter really makes much sense except as a desire to be seen as a modern Da Vinci. I've heard him described as narcissistic; I'm not qualified to say if he is that clinically or merely to the extent of an actor or YouTuber, but he certainly doesn't seem like he'll ever really feel secure in his connection to others. I'm still not sure what to make of his clear humility about the success prospects for each new rocket's first launch, vs. the apparent hubris in every other field.

martin_a 4y ago

Social security nets probably do.

pjc50 4y ago

People are arguing this in the comments, but: no, obviously not, mass shootings are not directly anything to do with employment, but they are a policy choice which Europeans and Americans cannot understand each other over.

PaywallBuster 4y ago

half the mass shootings are done by young/students? South europe countries have ~ 50% youth unemployment and very little prospects however there's no mass shootings?

freitzkriesler2 4y ago
No mass shootings, but do look up knife crime and sexual assault statistics. Different implements, same outcomes unfortunately. And youth unemployment is one of the problems that Europe has that America doesn't have nearly as badly.
- carlosjobim 4y ago
  > No mass shootings, but do look up knife crime and sexual assault statistics. You can be certain that has nothing to do with unemployment.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Last time I looked US gun+knife crime had far more victims than European knife crime. Even in Glasgow, former knife crime capital of Europe, which had a very successful violence reduction project. https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-country/ https://crookedtimber.org/2012/07/20/america-is-a-violent-co... : "the most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself." US crime is high, but falling from its very high peak, more or less independently of who's President.