6 ms·

> by European employment 'contracts' With great variations between member states. Germany has long notice periods, Greece has as short as 2 weeks notice. > ho

> by European employment 'contracts' With great variations between member states. Germany has long notice periods, Greece has as short as 2 weeks notice. > how this isn't indentured servitude Labour law extends similar protections to employees. A long notice period simply levels the playing fields by returning some protection to employers. That's why in the EU there aren't mass layoffs like in the US right now, or riots, or mass shootings. > (What happens if you ignore it?) Maybe nothing, depends on how litigious the employer is. Usually a shorter notice period can be negotiated, eg. by agreeing to some un/pre-paid post-departure consulting for the previous employer. > I can't imagine how a future employer can wait a full quarter It's about planning. I wouldn't want to work for an employer who is hiring in panic because they haven't foreseen labour needs. I'd be afraid that they'd let me go as easily as they have hired me. > so this must greatly restrict labor mobility Yes > and hence wages That is why you are trying to hire in Europe, aren't you? > How is this legal, in the famously pro-labor EU? Because it is literally the law.

cscurmudgeon 4y ago
1. There are layoffs in EU but they are not click worthy as those in Silicon Valley. https://sifted.eu/articles/startup-tech-company-layoffs-2023/ https://sifted.eu/articles/startup-tech-company-layoffs-2023...
- piva00 4y ago
  At least in Sweden (and I believe Germany is similar) there are no layoffs as you see in the US. In Sweden an employer might extend an offer to buy you out of your employment contract, which you can deny and continue to be employed. If they want to do layoffs they will have to follow LAS which has a few provisions on how it should be done, including a LIFO order for who gets shafted, and any positions considered "redundant" not being able to be hired at all for a few months (I believe it's 6 months but I might be wrong).
  - cscurmudgeon 4y ago
    The US also has provisions on layoffs. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/warn-act-what-every-us-worker-should-know.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/warn-act-what-every-us-worke...
hash872 4y ago
Employment contracts will prevent mass shootings?
- ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
  Employment does
  - luckylion 4y ago
    Unemployment rates: USA: 3.4% Spain: 13.1% Greece: 11.6% Italy: 7.8% Cypus: 7.7% [...] Malta: 3.2% Germany: 2.9% Poland: 2.9% Czechia: 2.3% That'll be some gymnastics.
    - piva00 4y ago
      If you are unemployed in most EU countries you are not at risk of dying because you can't afford healthcare, food and shelter. Less desperation for the unemployed is better for society. Employment security also helps mental health, you don't need to live in pure anxiety and fear that someone else might take your job next week.
    - hash872 4y ago
      Eh, to be fair to his argument, 'unemployment' is just a survey measuring who is actively looking for new employment but can't find it. Most developed countries have a higher rate of prime-age (25-60) employment than the US. I like that metric better, you're just looking nationally at what % of adults are employed overall
    - slowmovintarget 4y ago
      Those are the official numbers after the US changed the way it counts unemployment so as to appear better. If you go back to the way unemployment was counted before President G. W. Bush, you end up with higher rates. The current U-6 unemployment rate in the U.S. is 6.6%. That adds back in discouraged workers, workers on long-term unemployment, and workers on part-time employment because of the economy.
pc86 4y ago
And otherwise insightful comment making the absolutely bizarre connection between long employment notice periods and riots and mass shootings.
- ivan_gammel 4y ago
  More social security means more stable and less violent society, so it is an exaggeration but it is not wrong.
  - googlryas 4y ago
    Are we sure it isn't just tied to the number of guns in circulation that mentally unwell people have access to?
    - throwawaycopter 4y ago
      Is that not related in a roundabout way? Part of the reason the US has dismal social security is the same "dog eat dog" hyper individualistic mentality that is also present in people thinking it's their sacred right to own assault rifles and shit. At least that's my impression from the outside. I never really went to the US to taste it first hand.
  - keester 4y ago
    stable less violent right up until the revolution ..
- 131012 4y ago
  I think for many of us outside the US, your culture of dog eat dog and I owe nothing to nobody except my sacred duty to get rich is the root of your social problems.
  - ted_bunny 4y ago
    It's not American culture, it's that capitalist culture gets traction here first. So... brace yourselves. Maybe with kevlar. More eloquently: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/
xwowsersx 4y ago
> > How is this legal, in the famously pro-labor EU? > Because it is literally the law. Ha, fair enough. I believe OP meant to ask and should have asked something along the lines of: "How is this the law in the famously pro-labor EU?"
- rob74 4y ago
  If you have a longer notice period for the employers, it's only fair to have the same for the employees too. After all, if your company has to search for a replacement, and the prospective candidates are currently employed with the same notice period, they have to start looking as soon as you hand in your notice...
pastacacioepepe 4y ago
> (What happens if you ignore it?) In the EU country I live in employees have 30 days of notice and the employee has to pay the employer for each missing day of required notice. Employees generally don't pay anything anyway, as they mature several additional "bonuses" (13th and 14th month, severance pay) during their employment and the missing notice payment can be detracted from those.

cscurmudgeon 4y ago

1. There are layoffs in EU but they are not click worthy as those in Silicon Valley. https://sifted.eu/articles/startup-tech-company-layoffs-2023/ https://sifted.eu/articles/startup-tech-company-layoffs-2023...

piva00 4y ago
At least in Sweden (and I believe Germany is similar) there are no layoffs as you see in the US. In Sweden an employer might extend an offer to buy you out of your employment contract, which you can deny and continue to be employed. If they want to do layoffs they will have to follow LAS which has a few provisions on how it should be done, including a LIFO order for who gets shafted, and any positions considered "redundant" not being able to be hired at all for a few months (I believe it's 6 months but I might be wrong).
- cscurmudgeon 4y ago
  The US also has provisions on layoffs. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/warn-act-what-every-us-worker-should-know.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/11/10/warn-act-what-every-us-worke...

hash872 4y ago

Employment contracts will prevent mass shootings?

ggeorgovassilis 4y ago
Employment does
- luckylion 4y ago
  Unemployment rates: USA: 3.4% Spain: 13.1% Greece: 11.6% Italy: 7.8% Cypus: 7.7% [...] Malta: 3.2% Germany: 2.9% Poland: 2.9% Czechia: 2.3% That'll be some gymnastics.
  - piva00 4y ago
    If you are unemployed in most EU countries you are not at risk of dying because you can't afford healthcare, food and shelter. Less desperation for the unemployed is better for society. Employment security also helps mental health, you don't need to live in pure anxiety and fear that someone else might take your job next week.
  - hash872 4y ago
    Eh, to be fair to his argument, 'unemployment' is just a survey measuring who is actively looking for new employment but can't find it. Most developed countries have a higher rate of prime-age (25-60) employment than the US. I like that metric better, you're just looking nationally at what % of adults are employed overall
  - slowmovintarget 4y ago
    Those are the official numbers after the US changed the way it counts unemployment so as to appear better. If you go back to the way unemployment was counted before President G. W. Bush, you end up with higher rates. The current U-6 unemployment rate in the U.S. is 6.6%. That adds back in discouraged workers, workers on long-term unemployment, and workers on part-time employment because of the economy.

pc86 4y ago

And otherwise insightful comment making the absolutely bizarre connection between long employment notice periods and riots and mass shootings.

ivan_gammel 4y ago
More social security means more stable and less violent society, so it is an exaggeration but it is not wrong.
- googlryas 4y ago
  Are we sure it isn't just tied to the number of guns in circulation that mentally unwell people have access to?
  - throwawaycopter 4y ago
    Is that not related in a roundabout way? Part of the reason the US has dismal social security is the same "dog eat dog" hyper individualistic mentality that is also present in people thinking it's their sacred right to own assault rifles and shit. At least that's my impression from the outside. I never really went to the US to taste it first hand.
- keester 4y ago
  stable less violent right up until the revolution ..
131012 4y ago
I think for many of us outside the US, your culture of dog eat dog and I owe nothing to nobody except my sacred duty to get rich is the root of your social problems.
- ted_bunny 4y ago
  It's not American culture, it's that capitalist culture gets traction here first. So... brace yourselves. Maybe with kevlar. More eloquently: https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/07/25/how-the-west-was-won/

xwowsersx 4y ago

> > How is this legal, in the famously pro-labor EU? > Because it is literally the law. Ha, fair enough. I believe OP meant to ask and should have asked something along the lines of: "How is this the law in the famously pro-labor EU?"

rob74 4y ago
If you have a longer notice period for the employers, it's only fair to have the same for the employees too. After all, if your company has to search for a replacement, and the prospective candidates are currently employed with the same notice period, they have to start looking as soon as you hand in your notice...

pastacacioepepe 4y ago

> (What happens if you ignore it?) In the EU country I live in employees have 30 days of notice and the employee has to pay the employer for each missing day of required notice. Employees generally don't pay anything anyway, as they mature several additional "bonuses" (13th and 14th month, severance pay) during their employment and the missing notice payment can be detracted from those.