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> Why does a package manager need to track their users at all? Do any of you actually work in this industry shipping software products to end users? Without

> Why does a package manager need to track their users at all? Do any of you actually work in this industry shipping software products to end users? Without telemetry the problem there is literally one of trying to read the mind of your end users to figure out what they're doing, hoping that your internal CI manages to reflect the configuration in their environment.

Shish2k 4y ago
I think HN has a very varied audience - some work in the industry, others want A/B testing to be made illegal on the grounds that it is non-consensual mind-control experimentation :P
- bathtub365 4y ago
  The groups of people who work in the industry and those who believe A/B testing is psychological experimentation aren’t disjoint.
- jeltz 4y ago
  I am in both groups. I work in the industry and I am so tired of colleagues wanting to grab or data they can get their grubby hands on and then barely use it at all for anything useful. So many companies collect data just in case.
pdimitar 4y ago
Any actual arguments? I don't see why something that's little more than a file server needs telemetry.
- nicky0 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    Several phrases yet zero actual counter-arguments. Everyone from 6 years old and above can swoop in and insult. Maybe you were lost on your way to Reddit?
    - dylan604 4y ago
      How about calling it nothing more than a file server is also just a Reddit style insult. If you think a package manager is nothing more than a file server, I'd suggest you learn more about what a package manger does or just go live in Reddit land with all of the other willfully ignorant types. It is not for us to convince you otherwise. It's such lame comparison that even searching for "file server vs package manager" doesn't even autofill because nobody searches for it because probably nobody would ever even sanely think to make the comparison.
- shepherdjerred 4y ago
  > something that's little more than a file server You're doing an awful disservice to Homebrew.
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    I am, yes, and sorry about it. I don't like telemetry at all and I believe we have to find other ways to do QA. Hence my strong reaction.
- therealdrag0 4y ago
  Have you looked at the analytics yet? Or are you only speaking from ideological priors? The most valuable one I’d guess is package install error rates. Seems pretty useful to me.
- woodruffw 4y ago
  Homebrew is a package manager with thousands of packages, not a file server. We maintain those packages, and knowing when they break (or can be deprecated due to lack of use) is critical to the project's sustenance.
  - pdimitar 4y ago
    Okay, fair enough. But the breakage can't be detected without telemetry then, I take it? If so, that's... not ideal for sure.
    - woodruffw 4y ago
      Homebrew can detect a lot of things during normal maintenance work: there are extensive tests and checks during compilation and bottle building, for example. However, we can't catch everything: Homebrew has millions of users, and those users have all kinds of different setups. We can't predict every possible host and software interaction; basic failure analytics help bridge the gap there.
      - pdimitar 4y ago
        Okay, I'm sold, and I'm sorry for being blunt. Where can I learn more? Can you point me at the right place in the source? I'll not be banning Homebrew telemetry.
        woodruffw 4y ago
        I understand the desire for privacy, and the seriousness that comes with it! I've linked Homebrew's analytics data and the source code that collects it elsewhere in this thread. And, to be absolutely clear: it is perfectly fine for you to disable Homebrew's analytics. There are an infinite number of legitimate reasons for doing so, including the most basic one of "I just don't want to." My sole goal is to dispel the small number of inaccurate beliefs about what Homebrew collects, why we collect it, etc.
        4y ago
account42 4y ago
This industry has managed to ship software products without telemetry just fine - mass-collecting usage data from end users is only a relatively recent trend.
hungryforcodes 4y ago
Users report issues to GitHub? It's not like Brew users aren't sophisticated in that sense. In addition to being INCREDIABLY slow, now I have to worry about what it might spy on. If I have a problem I'm more than happy to go to GitHub (or which ever site it's hosted on), and report it.
closewith 4y ago
I imagine many of us work shipping software to end users and also respect their right to privacy, and only track their actions with informed consent.

Shish2k 4y ago

I think HN has a very varied audience - some work in the industry, others want A/B testing to be made illegal on the grounds that it is non-consensual mind-control experimentation :P

bathtub365 4y ago
The groups of people who work in the industry and those who believe A/B testing is psychological experimentation aren’t disjoint.
jeltz 4y ago
I am in both groups. I work in the industry and I am so tired of colleagues wanting to grab or data they can get their grubby hands on and then barely use it at all for anything useful. So many companies collect data just in case.

pdimitar 4y ago

Any actual arguments? I don't see why something that's little more than a file server needs telemetry.

nicky0 4y ago
[flagged]
- pdimitar 4y ago
  Several phrases yet zero actual counter-arguments. Everyone from 6 years old and above can swoop in and insult. Maybe you were lost on your way to Reddit?
  - dylan604 4y ago
    How about calling it nothing more than a file server is also just a Reddit style insult. If you think a package manager is nothing more than a file server, I'd suggest you learn more about what a package manger does or just go live in Reddit land with all of the other willfully ignorant types. It is not for us to convince you otherwise. It's such lame comparison that even searching for "file server vs package manager" doesn't even autofill because nobody searches for it because probably nobody would ever even sanely think to make the comparison.
shepherdjerred 4y ago
> something that's little more than a file server You're doing an awful disservice to Homebrew.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  I am, yes, and sorry about it. I don't like telemetry at all and I believe we have to find other ways to do QA. Hence my strong reaction.
therealdrag0 4y ago
Have you looked at the analytics yet? Or are you only speaking from ideological priors? The most valuable one I’d guess is package install error rates. Seems pretty useful to me.
woodruffw 4y ago
Homebrew is a package manager with thousands of packages, not a file server. We maintain those packages, and knowing when they break (or can be deprecated due to lack of use) is critical to the project's sustenance.
- pdimitar 4y ago
  Okay, fair enough. But the breakage can't be detected without telemetry then, I take it? If so, that's... not ideal for sure.
  - woodruffw 4y ago
    Homebrew can detect a lot of things during normal maintenance work: there are extensive tests and checks during compilation and bottle building, for example. However, we can't catch everything: Homebrew has millions of users, and those users have all kinds of different setups. We can't predict every possible host and software interaction; basic failure analytics help bridge the gap there.
    - pdimitar 4y ago
      Okay, I'm sold, and I'm sorry for being blunt. Where can I learn more? Can you point me at the right place in the source? I'll not be banning Homebrew telemetry.
      - woodruffw 4y ago
        I understand the desire for privacy, and the seriousness that comes with it! I've linked Homebrew's analytics data and the source code that collects it elsewhere in this thread. And, to be absolutely clear: it is perfectly fine for you to disable Homebrew's analytics. There are an infinite number of legitimate reasons for doing so, including the most basic one of "I just don't want to." My sole goal is to dispel the small number of inaccurate beliefs about what Homebrew collects, why we collect it, etc.
        4y ago

account42 4y ago

This industry has managed to ship software products without telemetry just fine - mass-collecting usage data from end users is only a relatively recent trend.

hungryforcodes 4y ago

Users report issues to GitHub? It's not like Brew users aren't sophisticated in that sense. In addition to being INCREDIABLY slow, now I have to worry about what it might spy on. If I have a problem I'm more than happy to go to GitHub (or which ever site it's hosted on), and report it.

closewith 4y ago

I imagine many of us work shipping software to end users and also respect their right to privacy, and only track their actions with informed consent.