4 ms·

telegram isn't e2e encrypted (unless you use secret chats which nobody does (and those do not support more than 2 participants))

tapoxi 4y ago
Not only that but they've made suspicious ties with the Kremlin that resulted in it being unblocked in Russia and have a mysterious source of funding after TON collapsed.
- throwaway13337 4y ago
  I'd love to hear more about this. I thought Pavel Durov (founder) isn't really welcome in Russia. He seems to have a left a lot of money on the table with his previous company (VK) to get out of there. The interpretation of events with telegram I've always heard has been that Russia tried to block telegram but doing so blocked most of the rest of useful services as telegram was hosted on e.g. AWS. This meant that real work was slowed. In the end, they gave up because continuing the block would mean crippling their access to the internet. I have found it weird that pro-putin russians still use telegram. But it seems like a lack of discipline which is quite the plague of russian military. I'd genuinely love to get good information on this as I use telegram as it is a great piece of technology and wouldn't if it were collaborating with russian government. I think a lot of rumors do not distinguish between russian people and russian government. And that's pretty damaging.
  - tapoxi 4y ago
    https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
    - throwaway13337 4y ago
      While very long, it doesn't look like that article provides anything but speculation. What would you say is the key point? Where's the meat? I know that it would be hard to get good evidence here but I still think the burden of proof lies on the more extreme claim. Which to me is that a company founded by someone fleeing oppression would work directly with the oppressor. The example of messages appearing as 'read' does not imply to me that telegram is working with them - rather that the her app was compromised by other means. Otherwise, why create such a flaw in your monitoring? Meduza - news organization criminally charged in russia operating in latvia - is mostly accessed in russia via telegram. It's hard but not impossible to imagine that the russian government would allow it to remain uncensored.
      - tapoxi 4y ago
        The agreement with the Russian Government over "Terrorism" cases is not just speculation, but announced by both parties.
        throwaway13337 4y ago
        That would be damning if I could find a statement by telegram about how they are working with the russian government to deal with 'terrorism'. I'm seeing quoted statements by the russian government in the article that I cannot verify elsewhere but I'm unable to see telegram making a statement from their side of working with the russian government. I'm truly interested in getting to the bottom of this. This wired piece doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in it's trustworthiness but I'm unable to find something with more concrete sources or at least a better reputation.
    - fernandotakai 4y ago
      as a counter point, here's telegram's answer to this article https://telegra.ph/Wired-Errors https://telegra.ph/Wired-Errors
- pdimitar 4y ago
  Interesting. Where can we read more?
  - thewinnie 4y ago
    Can you read russian or translate it via google translate? https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-claims-3f395bcc95fa https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-clai... while the whole store is about on how Durov tried to sleep with authors wife and tried to put pressure on him using his work position, author did expose facts which very interesting: - telegram office in sankt petersburg sharing same office that mail ru does (and mail ru basically is pro government org) - telegram team still contributes to vkotankte and they do share some software components connect to online messaging - most interesting russian oligarchs has very big influence on the products (vkontakte and telegram). While both productions trying to tell its not true, behind the doors they do have well established process of giving data when certain criterias are met
    - ashwagary 4y ago
      Curious how good chatGPT is at translation. Tried it on Russian?
      - thewinnie 4y ago
        Have you tried?
        ashwagary 4y ago
        Not yet but will next time I login.
seanw444 4y ago
I wouldn't say nobody. My parents, SO, and some of my friends all use the encrypted chats. It would be nice if the client made the differences more clear though. Although if it is a honeypot, then they obviously wouldn't want to advertise the workaround.
officeplant 4y ago
Is there a e2e chat program that actually supports encrypted chats with more than 2 people? We've used telegram e2e but its frustrating since you can't see those chats on desktop at all. (for obvious reasons)
- nirvgorilla 4y ago
  I say again: Jitsi Meet (Open source, self-hosted) has voice/video E2EE (it has text, but is not yet encrypted). No login. No password. No app. All WebRTC. Chrome required since Firefox does not yet seem to support encryption over WebRTC (I think). I set it up from scratch with Debian Linux and Virtualbox in about 30 minutes here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rlffwHUchk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rlffwHUchk
- mmcnl 4y ago
  Yes, WhatsApp and Signal. Both use the Signal Protocol.

tapoxi 4y ago

Not only that but they've made suspicious ties with the Kremlin that resulted in it being unblocked in Russia and have a mysterious source of funding after TON collapsed.

throwaway13337 4y ago
I'd love to hear more about this. I thought Pavel Durov (founder) isn't really welcome in Russia. He seems to have a left a lot of money on the table with his previous company (VK) to get out of there. The interpretation of events with telegram I've always heard has been that Russia tried to block telegram but doing so blocked most of the rest of useful services as telegram was hosted on e.g. AWS. This meant that real work was slowed. In the end, they gave up because continuing the block would mean crippling their access to the internet. I have found it weird that pro-putin russians still use telegram. But it seems like a lack of discipline which is quite the plague of russian military. I'd genuinely love to get good information on this as I use telegram as it is a great piece of technology and wouldn't if it were collaborating with russian government. I think a lot of rumors do not distinguish between russian people and russian government. And that's pretty damaging.
- tapoxi 4y ago
  https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-kremlin-has-entered-the-chat...
  - throwaway13337 4y ago
    While very long, it doesn't look like that article provides anything but speculation. What would you say is the key point? Where's the meat? I know that it would be hard to get good evidence here but I still think the burden of proof lies on the more extreme claim. Which to me is that a company founded by someone fleeing oppression would work directly with the oppressor. The example of messages appearing as 'read' does not imply to me that telegram is working with them - rather that the her app was compromised by other means. Otherwise, why create such a flaw in your monitoring? Meduza - news organization criminally charged in russia operating in latvia - is mostly accessed in russia via telegram. It's hard but not impossible to imagine that the russian government would allow it to remain uncensored.
    - tapoxi 4y ago
      The agreement with the Russian Government over "Terrorism" cases is not just speculation, but announced by both parties.
      - throwaway13337 4y ago
        That would be damning if I could find a statement by telegram about how they are working with the russian government to deal with 'terrorism'. I'm seeing quoted statements by the russian government in the article that I cannot verify elsewhere but I'm unable to see telegram making a statement from their side of working with the russian government. I'm truly interested in getting to the bottom of this. This wired piece doesn't inspire a lot of confidence in it's trustworthiness but I'm unable to find something with more concrete sources or at least a better reputation.
  - fernandotakai 4y ago
    as a counter point, here's telegram's answer to this article https://telegra.ph/Wired-Errors https://telegra.ph/Wired-Errors
pdimitar 4y ago
Interesting. Where can we read more?
- thewinnie 4y ago
  Can you read russian or translate it via google translate? https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-claims-3f395bcc95fa https://medium.com/@anton.rozenberg/friendship-betrayal-clai... while the whole store is about on how Durov tried to sleep with authors wife and tried to put pressure on him using his work position, author did expose facts which very interesting: - telegram office in sankt petersburg sharing same office that mail ru does (and mail ru basically is pro government org) - telegram team still contributes to vkotankte and they do share some software components connect to online messaging - most interesting russian oligarchs has very big influence on the products (vkontakte and telegram). While both productions trying to tell its not true, behind the doors they do have well established process of giving data when certain criterias are met
  - ashwagary 4y ago
    Curious how good chatGPT is at translation. Tried it on Russian?
    - thewinnie 4y ago
      Have you tried?
      - ashwagary 4y ago
        Not yet but will next time I login.

seanw444 4y ago

I wouldn't say nobody. My parents, SO, and some of my friends all use the encrypted chats. It would be nice if the client made the differences more clear though. Although if it is a honeypot, then they obviously wouldn't want to advertise the workaround.

officeplant 4y ago

Is there a e2e chat program that actually supports encrypted chats with more than 2 people? We've used telegram e2e but its frustrating since you can't see those chats on desktop at all. (for obvious reasons)

nirvgorilla 4y ago
I say again: Jitsi Meet (Open source, self-hosted) has voice/video E2EE (it has text, but is not yet encrypted). No login. No password. No app. All WebRTC. Chrome required since Firefox does not yet seem to support encryption over WebRTC (I think). I set it up from scratch with Debian Linux and Virtualbox in about 30 minutes here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rlffwHUchk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rlffwHUchk
mmcnl 4y ago
Yes, WhatsApp and Signal. Both use the Signal Protocol.