4 ms·

I don't know why this is downvoted, it's probably the best advice on this page. Learning a few things about deployment definitely helps to make better software.

by guggle 4y ago

ilyt 4y ago
That often quickly leads to "chmod -R 777 makes the app work and I don't give a shit about doing it properly" if your passion is dev, not ops
irskep 4y ago
Well, he did cherry-pick one joking comment out of a well-intentioned post in order to say I have a bad attitude, so that's not exactly welcoming. And very patronizing, considering I have actually done that kind of work with Salt Stack a few years ago, and just don't want to bother with it at the moment because I have other priorities. I learn new things every day, and one day, Docker was that thing. I am now better at release engineering, cool! But I also lost a day of working on shipping value to users and actually having fun, which is less cool. That's why PaaS has been helpful to certain kinds of people; it makes the curve of progressive disclosure necessary to deploy stuff a little flatter. My hope is that we can make more kinds of things really easy to do the right way, and not yell at people who just want to have some fun.
- guggle 4y ago
  Sure, that comment came a bit rough. But I'm not even sure it was triggered by the Docker comment, rather than the developer/release engineer opposition. At least that's how I see it. And maybe I just don't see the added value of PaaS because I've been spinning up public web servers for too long now ;-)
  - irskep 4y ago
    Yeah, that's fair, and it was bad phrasing on my part. The engineer type distinctions are completely imaginary. It just really threw me off to have people respond to me sharing something I thought was helpful with claims that I'm somehow opposed to learning, when this project is nothing but learning. I do think people who have experience deploying software have a blind spot here, just like I have a blind spot for people who have never learned how to center a div. jUsT uSe FlExBoX
  - ZahiF 4y ago
    Hey there, I've never deployed anything but will be going to in the (very) near future. I'm self-taught and really haven't fooled around with servers, ever. So instead of just going down the PaaS way I was hoping to kind of turn my computer/raspberry pie into a server as a fun learning project. Any cool, beginner friendly resources you can share? Many thanks
cutler 4y ago
Agreed. Too much reliance on AWS, Heroku etc. can leave you without vital Linux skills. Linux cli tools are not just for getting a job done, though they're great at what they do. No, they're part of the *nix culture which is what open source software is based on. Only recently have I become aware that it was better to have entered software development in or before the early 2000s, ie. before The Cloud took off. You were forced to learn Linux/BSD cli tools just to swim in the water. I can't imagine, back then, knowing Perl and not knowing Linux or FreeBSD.
- bravura 4y ago
  I used slackware linux. I wrote assembly code when I was a teenager. I use 'perl -i -pe' constantly. I still don't want to learn a bunch of arcane flags from a bunch of tools with a million gotchas. Sorry. I'd rather focus on the code craft that gives me joy these days. Sorry, I detest this attitude of: "Well I was hazed so why aren't you hazed too?" Did I mention that Russ Cox and I used to write C code with pen and paper? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32874759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32874759 If you haven't, are you even qualified to discuss what vital skills others are missing? Or maybe because I learned perl because it was simpler than tr and awk, I should STFU? Give me a break.
  - orthecreedence 4y ago
    > I used slackware linux. I wrote assembly code when I was a teenager. Lol are you me? I grew up with Slack/assembler/softice/etc and I used to host everything on Slack boxes on Linode (bless them for having a pre-built image). But I left it a while ago because I got sick of dealing with hand upgrades and compiling everything from scratch. I feel the same way about other things. I could probably out-CLI most of the people here saying "you should learn linux!" but sometimes I just need to get something done. If I'm trying to get something out the door, I don't give a rat's ass about the details. It's fun and interesting when you're a teenager and it's 4am on a summer night and you've got nothing better to do, but these days I have strict time, limited energy, and I'm not going to spend more time fiddling with things than I need to.
  - ilyt 4y ago

I don't know why this is downvoted, it's probably the best advice on this page. Learning a few things about deployment definitely helps to make better software.

by guggle 4y ago

I don't know why this is downvoted, it's probably the best advice on this page. Learning a few things about deployment definitely helps to make better software.

ilyt 4y ago

That often quickly leads to "chmod -R 777 makes the app work and I don't give a shit about doing it properly" if your passion is dev, not ops

irskep 4y ago

Well, he did cherry-pick one joking comment out of a well-intentioned post in order to say I have a bad attitude, so that's not exactly welcoming. And very patronizing, considering I have actually done that kind of work with Salt Stack a few years ago, and just don't want to bother with it at the moment because I have other priorities. I learn new things every day, and one day, Docker was that thing. I am now better at release engineering, cool! But I also lost a day of working on shipping value to users and actually having fun, which is less cool. That's why PaaS has been helpful to certain kinds of people; it makes the curve of progressive disclosure necessary to deploy stuff a little flatter. My hope is that we can make more kinds of things really easy to do the right way, and not yell at people who just want to have some fun.

guggle 4y ago
Sure, that comment came a bit rough. But I'm not even sure it was triggered by the Docker comment, rather than the developer/release engineer opposition. At least that's how I see it. And maybe I just don't see the added value of PaaS because I've been spinning up public web servers for too long now ;-)
- irskep 4y ago
  Yeah, that's fair, and it was bad phrasing on my part. The engineer type distinctions are completely imaginary. It just really threw me off to have people respond to me sharing something I thought was helpful with claims that I'm somehow opposed to learning, when this project is nothing but learning. I do think people who have experience deploying software have a blind spot here, just like I have a blind spot for people who have never learned how to center a div. jUsT uSe FlExBoX
- ZahiF 4y ago
  Hey there, I've never deployed anything but will be going to in the (very) near future. I'm self-taught and really haven't fooled around with servers, ever. So instead of just going down the PaaS way I was hoping to kind of turn my computer/raspberry pie into a server as a fun learning project. Any cool, beginner friendly resources you can share? Many thanks

cutler 4y ago

Agreed. Too much reliance on AWS, Heroku etc. can leave you without vital Linux skills. Linux cli tools are not just for getting a job done, though they're great at what they do. No, they're part of the *nix culture which is what open source software is based on. Only recently have I become aware that it was better to have entered software development in or before the early 2000s, ie. before The Cloud took off. You were forced to learn Linux/BSD cli tools just to swim in the water. I can't imagine, back then, knowing Perl and not knowing Linux or FreeBSD.

bravura 4y ago
I used slackware linux. I wrote assembly code when I was a teenager. I use 'perl -i -pe' constantly. I still don't want to learn a bunch of arcane flags from a bunch of tools with a million gotchas. Sorry. I'd rather focus on the code craft that gives me joy these days. Sorry, I detest this attitude of: "Well I was hazed so why aren't you hazed too?" Did I mention that Russ Cox and I used to write C code with pen and paper? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32874759 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32874759 If you haven't, are you even qualified to discuss what vital skills others are missing? Or maybe because I learned perl because it was simpler than tr and awk, I should STFU? Give me a break.
- orthecreedence 4y ago
  > I used slackware linux. I wrote assembly code when I was a teenager. Lol are you me? I grew up with Slack/assembler/softice/etc and I used to host everything on Slack boxes on Linode (bless them for having a pre-built image). But I left it a while ago because I got sick of dealing with hand upgrades and compiling everything from scratch. I feel the same way about other things. I could probably out-CLI most of the people here saying "you should learn linux!" but sometimes I just need to get something done. If I'm trying to get something out the door, I don't give a rat's ass about the details. It's fun and interesting when you're a teenager and it's 4am on a summer night and you've got nothing better to do, but these days I have strict time, limited energy, and I'm not going to spend more time fiddling with things than I need to.
- ilyt 4y ago