4 ms·

> If we want to get an amen chorus going about how we should fix bail for blue collar defendants, I'm right there with you I'm generally in favor of the argume

> If we want to get an amen chorus going about how we should fix bail for blue collar defendants, I'm right there with you I'm generally in favor of the argument that we should fix disparities by bringing up the disfavored group rather than bringing down the favored group. I think that's generally right. But, I do think there's a serious risk of allowing a two-tier system of justice to exist (and we do have a two-tier justice system, I think at this point there's pretty little argument over that; the rich are treated very differently from the legislature, the prosecutors, the police, and the judges). Allowing them to continue to have a separate system where they don't experience the same injustices that poor defendants regularly experience means the people with political power are very disinclined to actually cause meaningful change. So the injustices will perpetuate. For that reason, I'm inclined to call for exactly that: white collar defendants to get the exact same treatment as blue collar defendants. No worse, but no better. Because when those white collar defendants experience those horrific injustices, the system is more likely to change for the better. I suspect this is just a difference of expectations. I think it's more likely we can treat white collar defendants worse, and then improve the system for everyone, than it is to convince those in power to just start treating blue collar defendants better. But I understand you probably don't agree with that. Ultimately, I think we must continually work to eliminate the discrepancies in the justice system, because those discrepancies allow people with power to completely disregard this as a significant issue. And I think we probably will always need to be working at this from both ends.

tptacek 4y ago
We obviously have a 2-tier system. We didn't need SBF to show us that; we knew long before, decades before. The expectation that SBF would be the breaking point where we fix that system is irrational, which is what makes this a banal conversation. There's nothing for anybody to learn from it. I'm not the only one making this point; I'm shoplifting it from Ken White, who has spent his career working on and advocating for some of these issues, and who is loudly sighing and complaining about the coverage of SBF's bail on the Serious Trouble podcast. There is interesting stuff going on in this case! But white collar bail treatment isn't one of those things.
- ncallaway 4y ago
  > The expectation that SBF would be the breaking point where we fix that system is irrational I don’t have an expectation that it will be the breaking point, but breaking points tend to come all of a sudden at once. Sometimes the straw that breaks the camel’s back isn’t the most significant straw. My reason for wanting to talk about it, is the breaking point will come earlier when we agitate more each time the injustice is made apparent. And Ken White is a great advocate. I also listen to him and read his works regularly. But he—while better than most lawyers—tend to have the same strong status quo tendency that lawyers have. They are embedded with the system as it is, and focused on the incremental reforms that make it better. Which is great! It’s super important to have people working on that problem and problem space. But it’s also important to have people pushing more… revolutionary ideas for reforms to the criminal justice system. I think both are important to be pushing for. The nuts and bolts incremental improvements to the existing systems are the most likely to have immediate impact now. But the big reformers are the ones that will push us towards a more equitable justice system in the long term. Frankly, I think the current justice system is a mockery of its own name, and count myself among those thinking it needs a more systematic overhaul. Hence my agitation over the SBF issues. But, again, I still think the incremental improvement work is important and necessary

tptacek 4y ago

We obviously have a 2-tier system. We didn't need SBF to show us that; we knew long before, decades before. The expectation that SBF would be the breaking point where we fix that system is irrational, which is what makes this a banal conversation. There's nothing for anybody to learn from it. I'm not the only one making this point; I'm shoplifting it from Ken White, who has spent his career working on and advocating for some of these issues, and who is loudly sighing and complaining about the coverage of SBF's bail on the Serious Trouble podcast. There is interesting stuff going on in this case! But white collar bail treatment isn't one of those things.

ncallaway 4y ago
> The expectation that SBF would be the breaking point where we fix that system is irrational I don’t have an expectation that it will be the breaking point, but breaking points tend to come all of a sudden at once. Sometimes the straw that breaks the camel’s back isn’t the most significant straw. My reason for wanting to talk about it, is the breaking point will come earlier when we agitate more each time the injustice is made apparent. And Ken White is a great advocate. I also listen to him and read his works regularly. But he—while better than most lawyers—tend to have the same strong status quo tendency that lawyers have. They are embedded with the system as it is, and focused on the incremental reforms that make it better. Which is great! It’s super important to have people working on that problem and problem space. But it’s also important to have people pushing more… revolutionary ideas for reforms to the criminal justice system. I think both are important to be pushing for. The nuts and bolts incremental improvements to the existing systems are the most likely to have immediate impact now. But the big reformers are the ones that will push us towards a more equitable justice system in the long term. Frankly, I think the current justice system is a mockery of its own name, and count myself among those thinking it needs a more systematic overhaul. Hence my agitation over the SBF issues. But, again, I still think the incremental improvement work is important and necessary