4 ms·

"Everyday on the internet I see trans people threatened, disrespected, or legislated out of existence" Legislation in the US has actually made trans people vani

"Everyday on the internet I see trans people threatened, disrespected, or legislated out of existence" Legislation in the US has actually made trans people vanish or are we using large amounts of hyperbole? People have been saying mean things about other groups for millennia, as long as its just words, its fine. I'm a jew, I see the neo nazi groups with banners or Kanye ranting and just laugh. Who cares? Now if they want to come at me with physical violence then that's something else. I'll respond in kind. I don't see many jews running around screaming that speech is violence, we just get on with it. Same for black people dealing with those same white supremacists. "don't let words affect you". Exactly! I am all for us as adults just not letting the words of people we will never meet affect us. I've sat down and had beers with open anti Semites and people with swastika tattoos while being very open about being a jew. Its fine, I had a good talk with them, nobody changed anyone's mind but we parted on good terms. I hope they find happiness. I in no way want them prosecuted for their beliefs or speech. Trans people are for some reason the only large visible group yelling that speech is violence and saying mean things about them should be illegal. And its primarily M2F trans people (in my experience), I don't really see F2M people doing it. I wonder if there is something related to the giving up of male physical strength that leads to demanding that society now protect you in all ways including your feelings. You're trans, cool, get on with it. Stop asking for special treatment. The only Nazis are actual Nazis. Let the downvotes commence.

keerthiko 4y ago
Surely you would feel very differently if you were born in a slightly different time in the not-so-distant past. How do you imagine the first "actual Nazis" came to the position of power where they could slaughter thousands of your community with impunity for nearly a generation? How do you imagine it couldn't happen again, if not in your lifetime, at some point in humanity's timeline? If not regarding Jews, regarding some new community? Do you really think it would be avoided simply by more people taking "don't let words affect you" to heart [ * ]? [ * ] (assuming, quite unreasonably, that that's actually something that could happen at a societal level)
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  Don't call me Shirley. Sorry I had too. There is a very large difference between random people doing it and the actual government the possesors of state sanctioned violence stirring people against you and I think you know that. On top of that, we live in the now in the United States. Freedom of speech is a very real thing that I very strongly believe should be close to absolute. Otherwise who gets to choose what is forbidden speech? Probably would not have liked it if Trump could decide what people are allowed to say.
- mikrotikker 4y ago
  > Do you really think it would be avoided simply by more people taking "don't let words affect you" to heart [ * ]? Yes because the Nazis were butthurt bitches and used their perceived victimisation as an excuse to met out horrible torture, violence and dehumanisation. Hitler tried to have a guy in Italy bought to heel for making his dog do a Nazi salute FFS.
gallopingcomp 4y ago
This is a very shortsighted, historically-ignorant take that singles out M2F trans folks disingenuously - there have been plenty of calls from all over society, from cis women to trans women to trans men to gay folks to straight folks to any and all racial groups. No, let’s just ignore all the times this has happened in history and all the times other groups had raised similar points (their possible merits aside), pretend this is a new problem, and blame MTF folks for it. Beware isolated standards of rigor, folks.
cmh89 4y ago
> I'm a jew, I see the neo nazi groups with banners or Kanye ranting and just laugh. Who cares? Now if they want to come at me with physical violence then that's something else. I'll respond in kind You're acting as though the likely outcome of neo-nazi groups is some skinhead trying to fight you. What actually happens is neo-nazi groups radicalize angry young men who then go out a gun down a whole bunch of people at a synagogue. >Trans people are for some reason the only large visible group yelling that speech is violence and saying mean things about them should be illegal. This is simply nonsense. Pretty much every group in the country has a contingent that wants speech against them regulated
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  There are always consequences to freedom of ideas. Some good, some bad. The suppression of speech and ideas leads to a dictatorship. I think people that attack others verbally for who or what they are are bad people. I just think that the consequences of suppression of speech are worse. It's all good when the leaders we like are in power and stifle the speech of those we disagree with. It's not so fun when the pendulum swings and those we disagree with have that power. "What actually happens is neo-nazi groups radicalize angry young men who then go out a gun down a whole bunch of people at a synagogue." Sometimes. Are you willing to ban Islam since so often it's ideals are corrupted and lead to groups like Isis or the Taliban? The only way to eliminate violence based on ideals is to eliminate free will. 1984 here we come.
  - cmh89 4y ago
    >The suppression of speech and ideas leads to a dictatorship. That's not true. Nazi ideology is banned in Germany, and they are a far healthier democracy than the United States. > I just think that the consequences of suppression of speech are worse. So if a group of people were plotting to kill you, you'd only want the State (i.e. the police) to step in after they had gone through with their plot? > Sometimes. Are you willing to ban Islam since so often it's ideals are corrupted and lead to groups like Isis or the Taliban? You're making up things that I 'believe'. I don't personally think that nazi ideology should be banned. I was merely pointing out that your fantasy of 'responding in kind' is nonsense. The end result of these hate ideologies is mass shootings and terrorism, not street fights you can be prepared for or defend yourself against.
breadbreadbread 4y ago
> Trans people are for some reason the only large visible group yelling that speech is violence and saying mean things about them should be illegal. this in an incredibly disingenuous take. Who is trying to make saying antitrans things should be illegal? last i checked trans people were still trying to access affirming medical care and not be attacked in the streets. If you are referring to like pronouns/names, I still think you are being disingenuous. I think right to self determination is a meaningful thing to fight for, you can argue that one persons request to be called by their chosen name impedes on your speech but i think you're wrong. > I don't really see F2M people doing it This is actually a really interesting phenomena! It does have to do with existing double standards in how society treats men and women. The fact is a lot of trans men either have an easier time passing bc masculine aesthetics are easier to adopt or they are dismissed because they aren't seen as a threat by people who think a penis is the thing that makes you dangerous. Of course trans men have their own battles but they largely aren't being branded as a sex offender for existing in the way that trans women are. Also they absolutely are fighting for the same rights, it may seem quieter because the popular culture war talking point is specifically about drag queens. I don't think the media has figured out how to villainize trans men. > Stop asking for special treatment. Every minority group fighting for their rights has been told this
- wonderwonder 4y ago
  "Who is trying to make saying antitrans things should be illegal?" Come on, did you read the post I was responding to? My post was a response to another post. Op appeared to want it to be made illegal. Calling speech violence implies that certain speech should be illegal as inflicting violence on others is illegal. "Every minority group fighting for their rights has been told this" The recent movement against trans is wholly due to the movements attempt to bring kids into it. Keep it out of schools and respect parental rights and I guarantee the focus on this goes away. The only reason the focus is on drag queens is because kids are being taken to highly sexualized shows. Stop doing that and no one cares about drag queens anymore. NSFW https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1603512564628987922?lang=en https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1603512564628987922?...
  - 4y ago

keerthiko 4y ago

Surely you would feel very differently if you were born in a slightly different time in the not-so-distant past. How do you imagine the first "actual Nazis" came to the position of power where they could slaughter thousands of your community with impunity for nearly a generation? How do you imagine it couldn't happen again, if not in your lifetime, at some point in humanity's timeline? If not regarding Jews, regarding some new community? Do you really think it would be avoided simply by more people taking "don't let words affect you" to heart [ * ]? [ * ] (assuming, quite unreasonably, that that's actually something that could happen at a societal level)

wonderwonder 4y ago
Don't call me Shirley. Sorry I had too. There is a very large difference between random people doing it and the actual government the possesors of state sanctioned violence stirring people against you and I think you know that. On top of that, we live in the now in the United States. Freedom of speech is a very real thing that I very strongly believe should be close to absolute. Otherwise who gets to choose what is forbidden speech? Probably would not have liked it if Trump could decide what people are allowed to say.
mikrotikker 4y ago
> Do you really think it would be avoided simply by more people taking "don't let words affect you" to heart [ * ]? Yes because the Nazis were butthurt bitches and used their perceived victimisation as an excuse to met out horrible torture, violence and dehumanisation. Hitler tried to have a guy in Italy bought to heel for making his dog do a Nazi salute FFS.

gallopingcomp 4y ago

This is a very shortsighted, historically-ignorant take that singles out M2F trans folks disingenuously - there have been plenty of calls from all over society, from cis women to trans women to trans men to gay folks to straight folks to any and all racial groups. No, let’s just ignore all the times this has happened in history and all the times other groups had raised similar points (their possible merits aside), pretend this is a new problem, and blame MTF folks for it. Beware isolated standards of rigor, folks.

cmh89 4y ago

> I'm a jew, I see the neo nazi groups with banners or Kanye ranting and just laugh. Who cares? Now if they want to come at me with physical violence then that's something else. I'll respond in kind You're acting as though the likely outcome of neo-nazi groups is some skinhead trying to fight you. What actually happens is neo-nazi groups radicalize angry young men who then go out a gun down a whole bunch of people at a synagogue. >Trans people are for some reason the only large visible group yelling that speech is violence and saying mean things about them should be illegal. This is simply nonsense. Pretty much every group in the country has a contingent that wants speech against them regulated

wonderwonder 4y ago
There are always consequences to freedom of ideas. Some good, some bad. The suppression of speech and ideas leads to a dictatorship. I think people that attack others verbally for who or what they are are bad people. I just think that the consequences of suppression of speech are worse. It's all good when the leaders we like are in power and stifle the speech of those we disagree with. It's not so fun when the pendulum swings and those we disagree with have that power. "What actually happens is neo-nazi groups radicalize angry young men who then go out a gun down a whole bunch of people at a synagogue." Sometimes. Are you willing to ban Islam since so often it's ideals are corrupted and lead to groups like Isis or the Taliban? The only way to eliminate violence based on ideals is to eliminate free will. 1984 here we come.
- cmh89 4y ago
  >The suppression of speech and ideas leads to a dictatorship. That's not true. Nazi ideology is banned in Germany, and they are a far healthier democracy than the United States. > I just think that the consequences of suppression of speech are worse. So if a group of people were plotting to kill you, you'd only want the State (i.e. the police) to step in after they had gone through with their plot? > Sometimes. Are you willing to ban Islam since so often it's ideals are corrupted and lead to groups like Isis or the Taliban? You're making up things that I 'believe'. I don't personally think that nazi ideology should be banned. I was merely pointing out that your fantasy of 'responding in kind' is nonsense. The end result of these hate ideologies is mass shootings and terrorism, not street fights you can be prepared for or defend yourself against.

breadbreadbread 4y ago

> Trans people are for some reason the only large visible group yelling that speech is violence and saying mean things about them should be illegal. this in an incredibly disingenuous take. Who is trying to make saying antitrans things should be illegal? last i checked trans people were still trying to access affirming medical care and not be attacked in the streets. If you are referring to like pronouns/names, I still think you are being disingenuous. I think right to self determination is a meaningful thing to fight for, you can argue that one persons request to be called by their chosen name impedes on your speech but i think you're wrong. > I don't really see F2M people doing it This is actually a really interesting phenomena! It does have to do with existing double standards in how society treats men and women. The fact is a lot of trans men either have an easier time passing bc masculine aesthetics are easier to adopt or they are dismissed because they aren't seen as a threat by people who think a penis is the thing that makes you dangerous. Of course trans men have their own battles but they largely aren't being branded as a sex offender for existing in the way that trans women are. Also they absolutely are fighting for the same rights, it may seem quieter because the popular culture war talking point is specifically about drag queens. I don't think the media has figured out how to villainize trans men. > Stop asking for special treatment. Every minority group fighting for their rights has been told this

wonderwonder 4y ago
"Who is trying to make saying antitrans things should be illegal?" Come on, did you read the post I was responding to? My post was a response to another post. Op appeared to want it to be made illegal. Calling speech violence implies that certain speech should be illegal as inflicting violence on others is illegal. "Every minority group fighting for their rights has been told this" The recent movement against trans is wholly due to the movements attempt to bring kids into it. Keep it out of schools and respect parental rights and I guarantee the focus on this goes away. The only reason the focus is on drag queens is because kids are being taken to highly sexualized shows. Stop doing that and no one cares about drag queens anymore. NSFW https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1603512564628987922?lang=en https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1603512564628987922?...
- 4y ago