3 ms·

> 3 companies My sweet summer child. You should read about tacit collusion.

sliken 4y ago
Does it happen, sure. Seems like Apple's increasingly happy to hit lower price points and disrupt the price structure for AMD and Intel based product lines. Similarly Intel seems to finally be getting it's act together and setting up to disrupt the AMD and Nvidia GPU market. Here's hoping. I saw a pretty decent GPU (RTX3080) for $420 recently!
- 0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
  Until I can slap an Apple chip into my random Linux build, those numbers are meaningless to me. Would require absolutely enormous performance improvements to justify making such a huge leap.
  - sliken 4y ago
    Like say going from 80GB/sec memory bandwidth to 400GB/sec? Or maybe having the iGPU performance go up 4-8x so most won't need a $500+ GPU? I'm considering an Apple studio, once refreshed with the M2 Max, even for Linux. Sure the GPU driver isn't quite there, but it's improving quickly.
    - dotnet00 4y ago
      Yeah, don't really need a $500 GPU on a platform which barely supports applications which really need that $500 GPU.
      - sliken 4y ago
        Like ML training and inference?
        dotnet00 4y ago
        The M1 sits near the bottom of NVIDIA's GPU lineup in terms of ML performance. Putting it just slightly ahead of the $200 1660ti. When doing a quick Google search on the topic, it turned out that several of the top results were blatantly misleading in that they limited the competing hardware to match the M1's limitations. For example, the top result, a wandb article [1] claims that the M1 is competitive with the V100, yet their own data shows that they aren't even fully utilizing the V100 and that when properly utilized it obviously totally outperforms the M1. https://wandb.ai/vanpelt/m1-benchmark/reports/Can-Apple-s-M1-Help-You-Train-Models-Faster-Cheaper-Than-NVIDIA-s-V100---VmlldzozNTkyMzg https://wandb.ai/vanpelt/m1-benchmark/reports/Can-Apple-s-M1... Similarly, Apple in its marketing for the M1 Ultra was extremely manipulative, bordering on outright lying, when it compared the chip to the 3090. It presented them on a "relative performance vs power" graph making it look like the chip matched the 3090 while consuming less than half the power, when what it was saying was that it's more efficient than the 3090 when you underutilize the 3090 to the point of matching the M1 Ultra's performance.
        sliken 4y ago
        Agreed on deceptive marketing. I dug around and found some M2 updates. Seems that generally, Nvidia laptops drop to a small fraction when on battery. Examples: 3dmark wild life. M2 max = 150 fps, 3080 ti 120 fps, 3080 Ti unplugged = 27fps. Blender 3d rendering: m2 max = 1:04 3080ti = :29 3080ti = 3:25 Lightroom: m2 max = :39 3080 Ti =:51 unplugged = 1:29 DR18 6k braw editing: m2 max = 0:55 3080 ti = 2:40 unplugged = 15 minutes For ML comparing 3070 vs M2 max, 3 batch sizes: CIFAR-10 m2 max = 242, 280, 327 RTX 3070 = 240, 283, 328 However for AI/ML duty the apple neural engine (ANE) looks pretty promising. On Densenet 121 the ANE on the M2 max is almost 7 times faster than the M2 Max GPU. Seems like the M2 max does pretty well compared to a plugged in RTX 3070 to 3080 Ti. The big bonuses is that you can use all ram (not limited to VRAM of 10-16gb) and you get the same performance even on battery.
    - pprotas 4y ago
      Sorry bro, that iGPU is not able to run anything on it, either because of the limitations of the OS or the limitations of the architecture. It’s just marketing.
      - sliken 4y ago
        You mean like PyTorch or TensorFlow?
      - sliken 4y ago
        I found a bunch of ML benchmarks, only one had a comparison to a RTX3070. Seems quite a bit better than "not able to run anything". In particular you can use up to 96GB ram, 4x the 4090. Granted it's m2 max is approximately 3070 in speed for such workloads, at least it doesn't decrease when unplugged. ResNet50: M1 amx = 155.3 M2 max = 188.8 M1 ultra = 242 mobilenetv2 M1 mmx = 415.7 M2 max = 467.9 M1 ultra = 634.4 DistilBERT M1 mmx = 134 M2 max = 164 M1 ultra = 215 BERTLarge M1 mmx = 20 M2 max = 25 M1 ultra = 30 CIFAR-10: 3 batch sizes RTX3070 240, 283, 328 M1 Max 297, 358, 443 M2 Max 242, 280, 327 M1 Ultra 207, 308, 453 Densenet 121: 3 batch sizes M1 Max 57 104 704 M2 Max 66 124 831 M1 Ultra 49 99 614
  - myself248 4y ago
    Seriously. I wish I could buy Apple silicon on a desktop board with a bunch of PCIe slots and stuff.

Does it happen, sure. Seems like Apple's increasingly happy to hit lower price points and disrupt the price structure for AMD and Intel based product lines. Similarly Intel seems to finally be getting it's act together and setting up to disrupt the AMD and Nvidia GPU market. Here's hoping. I saw a pretty decent GPU (RTX3080) for $420 recently!

0cf8612b2e1e 4y ago
Until I can slap an Apple chip into my random Linux build, those numbers are meaningless to me. Would require absolutely enormous performance improvements to justify making such a huge leap.
- sliken 4y ago
  Like say going from 80GB/sec memory bandwidth to 400GB/sec? Or maybe having the iGPU performance go up 4-8x so most won't need a $500+ GPU? I'm considering an Apple studio, once refreshed with the M2 Max, even for Linux. Sure the GPU driver isn't quite there, but it's improving quickly.
  - dotnet00 4y ago
    Yeah, don't really need a $500 GPU on a platform which barely supports applications which really need that $500 GPU.
    - sliken 4y ago
      Like ML training and inference?
      - dotnet00 4y ago
        The M1 sits near the bottom of NVIDIA's GPU lineup in terms of ML performance. Putting it just slightly ahead of the $200 1660ti. When doing a quick Google search on the topic, it turned out that several of the top results were blatantly misleading in that they limited the competing hardware to match the M1's limitations. For example, the top result, a wandb article [1] claims that the M1 is competitive with the V100, yet their own data shows that they aren't even fully utilizing the V100 and that when properly utilized it obviously totally outperforms the M1. https://wandb.ai/vanpelt/m1-benchmark/reports/Can-Apple-s-M1-Help-You-Train-Models-Faster-Cheaper-Than-NVIDIA-s-V100---VmlldzozNTkyMzg https://wandb.ai/vanpelt/m1-benchmark/reports/Can-Apple-s-M1... Similarly, Apple in its marketing for the M1 Ultra was extremely manipulative, bordering on outright lying, when it compared the chip to the 3090. It presented them on a "relative performance vs power" graph making it look like the chip matched the 3090 while consuming less than half the power, when what it was saying was that it's more efficient than the 3090 when you underutilize the 3090 to the point of matching the M1 Ultra's performance.
        sliken 4y ago
        Agreed on deceptive marketing. I dug around and found some M2 updates. Seems that generally, Nvidia laptops drop to a small fraction when on battery. Examples: 3dmark wild life. M2 max = 150 fps, 3080 ti 120 fps, 3080 Ti unplugged = 27fps. Blender 3d rendering: m2 max = 1:04 3080ti = :29 3080ti = 3:25 Lightroom: m2 max = :39 3080 Ti =:51 unplugged = 1:29 DR18 6k braw editing: m2 max = 0:55 3080 ti = 2:40 unplugged = 15 minutes For ML comparing 3070 vs M2 max, 3 batch sizes: CIFAR-10 m2 max = 242, 280, 327 RTX 3070 = 240, 283, 328 However for AI/ML duty the apple neural engine (ANE) looks pretty promising. On Densenet 121 the ANE on the M2 max is almost 7 times faster than the M2 Max GPU. Seems like the M2 max does pretty well compared to a plugged in RTX 3070 to 3080 Ti. The big bonuses is that you can use all ram (not limited to VRAM of 10-16gb) and you get the same performance even on battery.
  - pprotas 4y ago
    Sorry bro, that iGPU is not able to run anything on it, either because of the limitations of the OS or the limitations of the architecture. It’s just marketing.
    - sliken 4y ago
      You mean like PyTorch or TensorFlow?
    - sliken 4y ago
      I found a bunch of ML benchmarks, only one had a comparison to a RTX3070. Seems quite a bit better than "not able to run anything". In particular you can use up to 96GB ram, 4x the 4090. Granted it's m2 max is approximately 3070 in speed for such workloads, at least it doesn't decrease when unplugged. ResNet50: M1 amx = 155.3 M2 max = 188.8 M1 ultra = 242 mobilenetv2 M1 mmx = 415.7 M2 max = 467.9 M1 ultra = 634.4 DistilBERT M1 mmx = 134 M2 max = 164 M1 ultra = 215 BERTLarge M1 mmx = 20 M2 max = 25 M1 ultra = 30 CIFAR-10: 3 batch sizes RTX3070 240, 283, 328 M1 Max 297, 358, 443 M2 Max 242, 280, 327 M1 Ultra 207, 308, 453 Densenet 121: 3 batch sizes M1 Max 57 104 704 M2 Max 66 124 831 M1 Ultra 49 99 614
- myself248 4y ago
  Seriously. I wish I could buy Apple silicon on a desktop board with a bunch of PCIe slots and stuff.