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The kinds of censorship that really bothers me is when people like Ron deSantis use the power of the state to force people like university professors to say spe

The kinds of censorship that really bothers me is when people like Ron deSantis use the power of the state to force people like university professors to say specific things and muzzle them from saying other things. That's actual government censorship.

pclmulqdq 4y ago
Those professors and teachers are employees of the government. Like it or not, that puts them under the same umbrella as police officers, fire fighters, and others. Government employees are very much restricted in what they can say and do when they are on the clock.
- ausbah 4y ago
  no it doesn't, technically sure but universities are suppose to be free from controlled speech like this. see why tenure and academic freedom exist
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    Academic freedom is not a legal concept, and unfortunately the law trumps the ideals in this case. However, academic freedom isn't exactly unlimited: a tenured physics professor who doesn't teach a class on physics, publish a paper on physics, or advise a student for 10 years will likely be fired at most institutions (unless they have a nobel prize or something). Professors working at state schools have additional limits on their academic freedom. This is why you don't tend to see theology departments at state schools. Also, in practice, you could reasonably argue that there generally isn't much academic freedom in most fields, since most research is grant-funded, and that is controlled by (usually) governments.
- fallingfrog 4y ago
  Amazing how quickly people will pivot to "actually, it's ok to censor campus professors" as soon as the censored ideas are ones they don't like.
  - pclmulqdq 4y ago
    It's amazing how quickly people will pivot to "censorship of professors" when they are talking about laws that control the curriculum of elementary schools. I don't dislike professors or teachers at state schools, but I understand that they work in an institution that effectively does not offer academic freedom. If you are a professor, you can work at any other institution in the country, other than the 50-100 or so that are run by states, and you will have all the academic freedom you want. If this country goes to a major war, a large number of those professors are likely going to be told to work on something war-related, because they are agents of the state. If you are a teacher, who was actually targeted by the education control bills in FL, you arguably don't have enough training to have really have earned academic freedom. Until about 5 minutes ago, nobody argued that they did have academic freedom. Curricula are there for a reason.
    - rootusrootus 4y ago
      > the 50-100 or so that are run by states FWIW, I think you're off by an order of magnitude, more or less.
robertlagrant 4y ago
Can you give an example of compelled speech?
- fallingfrog 4y ago
  "Today, Florida honeymoon registry company Honeyfund.com, along with workplace diversity consultancy Collective Concepts and its co-founder Chevara Orrin filed a federal lawsuit to block enforcement of Florida’s HB 7, the Stop WOKE Act. The law purports to “fight back against woke indoctrination” by, among other things, barring employers from engaging in speech that “advances” certain “concepts” regarding race, sex, religion or national origin. The suit names Gov. Ron DeSantis and other Florida officials as defendants and challenges the statute as unconstitutional under the First and Fourteenth Amendments for barring the expression of viewpoints disfavored by government officials and chilling a wide range of speech in workplaces. "
  - worried4future 4y ago
    This is barring them from saying specific things, not compelling them to say other things, do you have an example of any compelled speech?
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    I should have been clearer: you said Ron DeSantis was using the power of the state to force university professors to say things. I was after a citation for that claim.
- fallingfrog 4y ago
  https://www.propublica.org/article/desantis-critical-race-theory-florida-college-professors https://www.propublica.org/article/desantis-critical-race-th...
  - worried4future 4y ago
    where in the 5000 word article does it talk about compelled speech, I skimmed it and searched and I don't see anything.
tick_tock_tick 4y ago
Education standards are normal. Simple question do we agree we don't need a middle school teacher explaining in graphic detail how to have sex? Or maybe "alternative" theory like flat earth? If not I don't know how we reach a common ground if we agree though maybe just maybe we can agree that teacher shouldn't be teaching certain things at certain ages and not call that "censorship". You might disagree what ages or things but still. A teacher isn't there to instill their values or beliefs into a child but to teach the curriculum.
- fragmede 4y ago
  Abstinence only education is known to not work, so unless your want to end up with a bunch of pregnant teenagers who think porn accurately depicts sex, having school teachers explain how sex works seems like the only reasonable conclusion. The only question then is at what age. Middle school starts off at 10-years old seems a bit young to me for graphic descriptions of sex. It is certainly old enough to have already learnt about what inappropriate touching is and what relationships are, though. Age 14, which is at the end of middle school seems like a reasonable age though. What age do you think is reasonable for schools to be teaching sex? Explicitly, how to use a condom, and the inaccuracies of porn.
  - tick_tock_tick 4y ago
    > What age do you think is reasonable for schools to be teaching sex? Explicitly, how to use a condom, and the inaccuracies of porn. I'm not going to play along with your attempt to deflect from your failure to answer. The specific age we choose doesn't really matter that much in the context of our discussion and you know that.

pclmulqdq 4y ago

Those professors and teachers are employees of the government. Like it or not, that puts them under the same umbrella as police officers, fire fighters, and others. Government employees are very much restricted in what they can say and do when they are on the clock.

ausbah 4y ago
no it doesn't, technically sure but universities are suppose to be free from controlled speech like this. see why tenure and academic freedom exist
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  Academic freedom is not a legal concept, and unfortunately the law trumps the ideals in this case. However, academic freedom isn't exactly unlimited: a tenured physics professor who doesn't teach a class on physics, publish a paper on physics, or advise a student for 10 years will likely be fired at most institutions (unless they have a nobel prize or something). Professors working at state schools have additional limits on their academic freedom. This is why you don't tend to see theology departments at state schools. Also, in practice, you could reasonably argue that there generally isn't much academic freedom in most fields, since most research is grant-funded, and that is controlled by (usually) governments.
fallingfrog 4y ago
Amazing how quickly people will pivot to "actually, it's ok to censor campus professors" as soon as the censored ideas are ones they don't like.
- pclmulqdq 4y ago
  It's amazing how quickly people will pivot to "censorship of professors" when they are talking about laws that control the curriculum of elementary schools. I don't dislike professors or teachers at state schools, but I understand that they work in an institution that effectively does not offer academic freedom. If you are a professor, you can work at any other institution in the country, other than the 50-100 or so that are run by states, and you will have all the academic freedom you want. If this country goes to a major war, a large number of those professors are likely going to be told to work on something war-related, because they are agents of the state. If you are a teacher, who was actually targeted by the education control bills in FL, you arguably don't have enough training to have really have earned academic freedom. Until about 5 minutes ago, nobody argued that they did have academic freedom. Curricula are there for a reason.
  - rootusrootus 4y ago
    > the 50-100 or so that are run by states FWIW, I think you're off by an order of magnitude, more or less.

robertlagrant 4y ago

Can you give an example of compelled speech?

fallingfrog 4y ago
"Today, Florida honeymoon registry company Honeyfund.com, along with workplace diversity consultancy Collective Concepts and its co-founder Chevara Orrin filed a federal lawsuit to block enforcement of Florida’s HB 7, the Stop WOKE Act. The law purports to “fight back against woke indoctrination” by, among other things, barring employers from engaging in speech that “advances” certain “concepts” regarding race, sex, religion or national origin. The suit names Gov. Ron DeSantis and other Florida officials as defendants and challenges the statute as unconstitutional under the First and Fourteenth Amendments for barring the expression of viewpoints disfavored by government officials and chilling a wide range of speech in workplaces. "
- worried4future 4y ago
  This is barring them from saying specific things, not compelling them to say other things, do you have an example of any compelled speech?
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  I should have been clearer: you said Ron DeSantis was using the power of the state to force university professors to say things. I was after a citation for that claim.
fallingfrog 4y ago
https://www.propublica.org/article/desantis-critical-race-theory-florida-college-professors https://www.propublica.org/article/desantis-critical-race-th...
- worried4future 4y ago
  where in the 5000 word article does it talk about compelled speech, I skimmed it and searched and I don't see anything.

tick_tock_tick 4y ago

Education standards are normal. Simple question do we agree we don't need a middle school teacher explaining in graphic detail how to have sex? Or maybe "alternative" theory like flat earth? If not I don't know how we reach a common ground if we agree though maybe just maybe we can agree that teacher shouldn't be teaching certain things at certain ages and not call that "censorship". You might disagree what ages or things but still. A teacher isn't there to instill their values or beliefs into a child but to teach the curriculum.

fragmede 4y ago
Abstinence only education is known to not work, so unless your want to end up with a bunch of pregnant teenagers who think porn accurately depicts sex, having school teachers explain how sex works seems like the only reasonable conclusion. The only question then is at what age. Middle school starts off at 10-years old seems a bit young to me for graphic descriptions of sex. It is certainly old enough to have already learnt about what inappropriate touching is and what relationships are, though. Age 14, which is at the end of middle school seems like a reasonable age though. What age do you think is reasonable for schools to be teaching sex? Explicitly, how to use a condom, and the inaccuracies of porn.
- tick_tock_tick 4y ago
  > What age do you think is reasonable for schools to be teaching sex? Explicitly, how to use a condom, and the inaccuracies of porn. I'm not going to play along with your attempt to deflect from your failure to answer. The specific age we choose doesn't really matter that much in the context of our discussion and you know that.