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These stories about the logistics at Amundsen-Scott are a fascinating glimpse at the level of logistical complexity that'd be required for an off-planet (Moon,

These stories about the logistics at Amundsen-Scott are a fascinating glimpse at the level of logistical complexity that'd be required for an off-planet (Moon, Mars...) base. Every time I see people get excited about Martian human habitation, I note a lack of discussion of the essential intermediate step: a fully self-sustaining base in the most inhospitable parts of Earth. Where are the Biosphere++ projects? And Amundsen-Scott has it easy: pressure, oxygen levels, and dust aren't a problem! (granted: Martian equator has easier temperatures). Also, I've long wondered what is the comparable level of yearly insolation (for sustainable power) in the South Pole compares to Mars' equator?

ReptileMan 4y ago
The first people on mars will be self replicating robots. Due to the way the exponential function works - I think enough terraforming could be done really fast.
- nine_k 4y ago
  But will humans be welcome afterwards?
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
    Not if they load the robots with Bing chat
    - m463 4y ago
      Bing chat 2.0, now with some of asimov's laws!
- robotresearcher 4y ago
  We don’t have self replicating robots on Earth. The first people on Mars will be like the first people on the moon: very vulnerable human tourists.
nine_k 4y ago
Martian equator has milder temperatures, more sunlight (no polar night), but has worse access to water, and none to breathable air. I'm certain that a self-contained habitation for a year is a solvable problem; nuclear submarines can be away in the ocean for a comparable time. A habitat self-sustained for potentially indefinite time (at least half century), while producing its own food and oxygen, is a much taller order. Unlike Amundsen's, such a station can have a nuclear reactor, with decades worth of fuel.
- AceJohnny2 4y ago
  > Unlike Amundsen's, such a station can have a nuclear reactor, with decades worth of fuel. Tangentially, McMurdo (the coastal Antarctica base) did have a nuclear reactor for a bit. It didn't go great. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/reid2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/reid2/
  - fm2606 4y ago
    Very interesting article. Thanks for sharing.
  - mjevans 4y ago
    An unfortunate early design. Hopefully the engineering knowledge and access to far better design tools that have developed in the interleaving ~50 years would allow for a much better design today. Though my hopes must be tempered by the prospect of greed. It would be better if the government(s) created an open design which could reuse off the shelf or components that any corporation could compete to create.
    - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
      Eh, no.. a failed concept, to grasp the techological deep roots needed to supply something with specialists and machinery at all times, at a location that is 9 months off limits.
      - 4y ago
eftychis 4y ago
Don't forget protection from solar and other radiation. (Disclaimer: I am one of those that aspire taking humanity to Mars.)
kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]
Grimburger 4y ago
> Where are the Biosphere++ projects? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500
- AceJohnny2 4y ago
  No, that was more of a psychological/social experiment that didn't seem to have closed life-support systems.
Schroedingersat 4y ago
Annual DNI or GTI at the south pole is surprisingly high. About 5-6kWh/m^2 which is pretty close to somewhere like california or western Australia. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334411420_Estimation_of_Direct_Normal_Irradiance_at_Antarctica_for_Concentrated_Solar_Technology https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334411420_Estimatio... GHI is quite low (your array needs to be very spread out) and seasonality is 1/0, but if seasonal storage were available then a solar array in antarctica is fine. Mars GHI is about 550W/m^2, but there are no clouds. An array there would perform about as well as france or spain.
- AceJohnny2 4y ago
  Thanks so much! I've been looking for this sort of information for years! (and didn't have the competence to calculate myself)
golergka 4y ago
> Every time I see people get excited about Martian human habitation, I note a lack of discussion of the essential intermediate step: a fully self-sustaining base in the most inhospitable parts of Earth. I remember a pretty popular book and a Hollywood starring Matt Damon which primarily focused on this exact problem.
- rolenthedeep 4y ago
  Unless you're talking about an entirely different story with the same title, it's about an individual person trying to survive alone somewhere with very limited resources. At no point is his situation sustainable, and he only barely just survives to be rescued. It really has nothing at all to do with developing a sustainable base on any planet. It's about some clever survival strategies, all of which are considered temporary at best.

ReptileMan 4y ago

The first people on mars will be self replicating robots. Due to the way the exponential function works - I think enough terraforming could be done really fast.

nine_k 4y ago
But will humans be welcome afterwards?
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  Not if they load the robots with Bing chat
  - m463 4y ago
    Bing chat 2.0, now with some of asimov's laws!
robotresearcher 4y ago
We don’t have self replicating robots on Earth. The first people on Mars will be like the first people on the moon: very vulnerable human tourists.

nine_k 4y ago

Martian equator has milder temperatures, more sunlight (no polar night), but has worse access to water, and none to breathable air. I'm certain that a self-contained habitation for a year is a solvable problem; nuclear submarines can be away in the ocean for a comparable time. A habitat self-sustained for potentially indefinite time (at least half century), while producing its own food and oxygen, is a much taller order. Unlike Amundsen's, such a station can have a nuclear reactor, with decades worth of fuel.

AceJohnny2 4y ago
> Unlike Amundsen's, such a station can have a nuclear reactor, with decades worth of fuel. Tangentially, McMurdo (the coastal Antarctica base) did have a nuclear reactor for a bit. It didn't go great. http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/reid2/ http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2014/ph241/reid2/
- fm2606 4y ago
  Very interesting article. Thanks for sharing.
- mjevans 4y ago
  An unfortunate early design. Hopefully the engineering knowledge and access to far better design tools that have developed in the interleaving ~50 years would allow for a much better design today. Though my hopes must be tempered by the prospect of greed. It would be better if the government(s) created an open design which could reuse off the shelf or components that any corporation could compete to create.
  - qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
    Eh, no.. a failed concept, to grasp the techological deep roots needed to supply something with specialists and machinery at all times, at a location that is 9 months off limits.
    - 4y ago

eftychis 4y ago

Don't forget protection from solar and other radiation. (Disclaimer: I am one of those that aspire taking humanity to Mars.)

kerpotgh 4y ago

[dead]

Grimburger 4y ago

> Where are the Biosphere++ projects? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARS-500

AceJohnny2 4y ago
No, that was more of a psychological/social experiment that didn't seem to have closed life-support systems.

Schroedingersat 4y ago

Annual DNI or GTI at the south pole is surprisingly high. About 5-6kWh/m^2 which is pretty close to somewhere like california or western Australia. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334411420_Estimation_of_Direct_Normal_Irradiance_at_Antarctica_for_Concentrated_Solar_Technology https://www.researchgate.net/publication/334411420_Estimatio... GHI is quite low (your array needs to be very spread out) and seasonality is 1/0, but if seasonal storage were available then a solar array in antarctica is fine. Mars GHI is about 550W/m^2, but there are no clouds. An array there would perform about as well as france or spain.

AceJohnny2 4y ago
Thanks so much! I've been looking for this sort of information for years! (and didn't have the competence to calculate myself)

golergka 4y ago

> Every time I see people get excited about Martian human habitation, I note a lack of discussion of the essential intermediate step: a fully self-sustaining base in the most inhospitable parts of Earth. I remember a pretty popular book and a Hollywood starring Matt Damon which primarily focused on this exact problem.

rolenthedeep 4y ago
Unless you're talking about an entirely different story with the same title, it's about an individual person trying to survive alone somewhere with very limited resources. At no point is his situation sustainable, and he only barely just survives to be rescued. It really has nothing at all to do with developing a sustainable base on any planet. It's about some clever survival strategies, all of which are considered temporary at best.