8 ms·

Not sure how long that'll play out. The 13th gen have barely been integrated in stuff and they seem to, at least on single thread, smash AMD in the price/perfor

by unxdfa 4y ago

Not sure how long that'll play out. The 13th gen have barely been integrated in stuff and they seem to, at least on single thread, smash AMD in the price/performance ranking. 13700K is a beast of a CPU for not much money. Also the next two gens of Intel stuff is very different. At least AMD are giving them an ass kicking which they deserve. My PC has a 12400 in it which actually realistically kicks my M1 Pro MBP in the teeth on some things which is embarrassing as it's a junk ass end Lenovo desktop machine that cost <$500. We live in interesting and exciting times.

hummus_bae 4y ago
When they come down in price they should be a damn good buy since it looks like they're much more efficient than AMD chips
sliken 4y ago
Keep in mind the prices are changing quickly as of late. AMD brought out the 7700, 7900, and 7950 (non-x) that are cheaper, generate less heat, and include a fan. There's also been pretty heavy discounts on the 7700x/7900x/7950x AMD chips as well. DDR5 and Motherboard prices for the am5 chips are dropping as well. Microcenter is even including 8GB free with a CPU purchase. The price/perf of the AM5 platform has changes quite a bit in the last month. Intel does win some benchmarks, but often at substantially higher power consumption. The AMD chips run cooler and even significantly reducing the TDP down to 65 watts often has a single digit percentage slow down.
- unxdfa 4y ago
  The cost in the 7000 series is the motherboards at the moment. They're still extortionately priced. 2x the price of an equivalent Intel one and that hasn't changed. It's improving but nowhere near reasonable. The AM4/B550 combo is still pretty good however. 99% of what I do is single thread bound so I really want to see some single thread power benchmarks but no one seems to bother with those. I'm in the market for a PC with the best single thread performance out there at the moment so I've got several machines configured in pcpartpicker and spreadsheets at the moment :(
  - bryanlarsen 4y ago
    A520 motherboards should be coming out soon. Hopefully they're cheap and don't suck.
  - sliken 4y ago
    Have you looked recently? I've been tracking DDR5 motherboard (I think the perf is worth it), MicroATX (don't need fullsize), I don't need blinking lights, watercooling systems, wifi, or exotic sound systems, so I go for relatively barebones motherboards. I do want something small, quiet, 2.5G ethernet, and has dual m.2 slots. On Newegg I found an Intel ASRock Riptide for $159 [0]. On Newegg I found an AMD ASRock Riptide for $169 [1]. I'll happily take the AMD and end up with a quieter and cooler system for the $10.00 premium. Debating between a 7700 (non-x), 7700X3D, or 7900 (non-x). Hopefully it lasts as long as my current (2015) desktop. Do you consider a $10 premium "extortionately priced"? [0] https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813162061 https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813162061 [1] https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813162083 https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813162083
    - unxdfa 4y ago
      UK here. Based on my needs, an Asus Prime H610 board that'll take a 13700K is £85. The cheapest AM5 board is £175. (I'm checking one vendor here who I know has a decent returns policy when your system integration goes to hell, another common AMD problem from much experience!)
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - sliken 4y ago
        Ah, wasn't looking that low. That gets you half the memory channels, half the memory bandwidth, half the PCIe, and 40% of the ethernet bandwidth. They go for $100-$110 here, doesn't seem worth saving $50, at least if you plan to keep the system for 5-10 years. BTW, AM5 added the ability to upgrade BIOS without a CPU. So no more nightmares of having to beg a CPU, borrow a CPU from AMD, or RMA to get a compatible CPU<->BIOS setup.
- kerpotgh 4y ago
  [dead]
coffeebeqn 4y ago
Apple to oranges. 12400 has a TDP of 65W while M1 has 13.8W. What can a 15W Intel do? Not much
- unxdfa 4y ago
  Don't really care. I use my MBP as a desktop machine and the TCO over 5 years including the electricity of the PC is much much lower.
  - lillecarl 4y ago
    I use my 150$ hand crafted hammer to screw in screws, but it gets beaten by my 5$ screwdriver at screwing performance, shameful.
    - Groxx 4y ago
      To get an equivalent metaphor here, you'd have to include "the $5 screwdriver also destroys $300/year worth of projects more than the hammer-screw" And then yeah. Shamefully short-sighted to use the $5 tool.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - bcrosby95 4y ago
    Using which equation? I run an 8 year old system76 laptop with a desktop grade CPU and my yearly electricity usage is about 100kwh (I measure pretty much all of our electrical usage), or $35. In my experience, the biggest electricity hog isn't gonna be your CPU, its gonna be your display(s), if you use any. I don't use any external monitors for my work setup.
    - unxdfa 4y ago
      The displays are a big part. I did a full breakdown here of costs if you are interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34812247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34812247
Paianni 4y ago
AMD has the edge on performance per watt though.
faeriechangling 4y ago
>The 13th gen have barely been integrated in stuff and they seem to, at least on single thread, smash AMD in the price/performance ranking. Costs more to run, costs more to make, runs hotter and louder, by "smash" we're usually talking single digit performance gulfs, and performance is worse in a fairly broad amount of applications and where Intel's performance IS better it often is in an application where you would never be able to tell the difference without measurement tools. The 12400 "kicking the m1 in the teeth" is likely due more to software optimisation than the 12400 actually being meaningfully better. Your like of Intel's products as a consumer isn't really a reflection of their competitiveness. The only reason you're willing to buy their products at all is that Intel is cutting their margins to the bone whereas AMD is making stacks on every sale. Intel has had the best single core performance for eons and that hasn't saved them from their decline.
- unxdfa 4y ago
  In synthetic benchmarks, indeed. In my workloads there's about a 20% lead and yes that might be due to software optimisation etc or something like that but that is a real factor in the outcome. If it saves me 5% of my time that gives me 10 days a year back. To be clear I'm no loyalist. I went from an AMD 3700X to a 2020 M1 Mac Mini originally because that spanked it. Then to an M1 Pro which was regrettably no real improvement. Then to a 12400 because I had one as a comparison point and it was faster. Now likely a 13700K. Next time, it might be AMD, might be an M3. Who knows?! I'm mostly just glad I can jump around and pick whatever is on the market rather than being locked into one product or platform now.
  - PartiallyTyped 4y ago
    Personally, I went 4950, 1700x, 5800x, 12700k. I considered giving intel another try after the 5800x, so I went with the 12700k. I needed a computer quickly, and my previous machine was unavailable. The next chance I am giving intel is relatively far into the future. Likely in 5-6 years at best given how many stability issues I have had. Do note that this is pure anecdata, n=1 and likely suffering from a degree of confirmation bias.
BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
MBP is the only computer I can run intense workloads at high performance while it remains completely silent. I’ve been waiting for such a machine for a long time. When intel can match that they’ll have my attention.
- unxdfa 4y ago
  My 14" MBP is not silent under load. It's not loud but not silent. You can build a suitably quiet PC. Be Quiet power supply, case, fans and cooler. Job done. They run very quiet. I had a 125W TDP CPU in one of them and you could barely hear it under load.
  - BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
    I’ve tried some pretty intense undervolts and power throttling but my PCs have always been annoyingly loud. I think I just need to get a case full of noctuas in my next build. But the dgpu will always be loud as shit regardless.
    - jeroenhd 4y ago
      You can get the GPU to be quiet if you go watercooling combined with quiet fans attached to the radiator. Much more expensive, much more complicated, but also much more efficient when it comes to cooling your equipment.
  - dvngnt_ 4y ago
    probably not in their form factor and quality
    - unxdfa 4y ago
      Can't disagree with the form factor but the quality is equivalent if you ask me. They both are likely to last 5 years+ and stay out of my way.
- mrj 4y ago
  My Tuxedo Computers Pulse Gen 2 was specifically built to be quiet. I also have a Macbook Pro (2019) here that run a similar workload for testing, and I can tell you that the Pulse is far quieter. I have 16 cores at 100% right now as I type this and there's no fan noise at all. I'm parsing 10,000+ php files and modifying them for an upgrade. I've done this before and the Mac makes a lot of noise. MBP is good but it's not all there is. This is a AMD Ryzen 7 5700U with a dual fan setup. It's got performance and efficiency cores similar to the newer Apple chips. Just throwing it out there! I hope more people support great laptops like this one.
nottorp 4y ago
> My PC has a 12400 in it which actually realistically kicks my M1 Pro MBP in the teeth on some things which is embarrassing as it's a junk ass end Lenovo desktop machine that cost <$500. And if you factor in power consumption at EU prices?
- unxdfa 4y ago
  Yes measured with an average power meter. 12400 Lenovo shitbox is £0.26 per day including the monitor (Iiyama 27" 4K). MBP is £0.19 a day including the monitor (Apple Studio Display). From spreadsheet: TCO over 5 years for Apple is £3838 (outlay) + £247 (electricity) = £68.08/month TCO over 5 years for PC is £1045 (outlay) + £405 (electricity) = £24.17/month That's shit change really but the cost difference is immense. Also the PC value has gone up since I bought it as I got it on a one day offer. I can shift it for £120 more than I paid for it. The mac, not so much. The Mac depreciates in the first 18 months more than the entire PC set up and electricity costs.
  - paulmd 4y ago
    > including the monitor (Apple Studio Display) honestly it's impressive that you gratuitously threw in a 1700GBP display on one side of the scale and the cost difference was still only 36% lol. Also just because the retail price has gone up doesn't mean you can actually sell the PC for the retail price. Resale value of x86 laptops is garbage... it's better for desktops of course especially if you can retain pieces of it, but this is still a super loaded comparison and even then Apple only came out 36% more expensive according to your numbers?
    - unxdfa 4y ago
      Not sure how you managed to get 36% more expensive. It’s 2.8x the cost. I’m just reporting where I am not how I got there (which was mostly me going “ooh shiny”)
      - paulmd 4y ago
        Those are your numbers, you said GBP 0.26 per day vs GBP 0.19 per day. You didn't show your math on residual value/etc so there's no way for me to go deeper than that, I'm just taking your numbers at face value.
dontlaugh 4y ago
I have a 12400 and a M1 Air. The Air is faster on pretty much anything I've tried, even most benchmarks.
- unxdfa 4y ago
  Not when you hit swap it’s not.
epolanski 4y ago
All you said is relatively true but ignores better power performance for AMD. "Smashing" ST performance while consuming 150w is not an ideal situation for anyone but gamers and benchmarkers.
- PartiallyTyped 4y ago
  And most gamers probably lack the cooling needed for those chips.
steponlego 4y ago
Most stuff is multi threaded now, even games.

by unxdfa 4y ago

hummus_bae 4y ago

When they come down in price they should be a damn good buy since it looks like they're much more efficient than AMD chips

sliken 4y ago

Keep in mind the prices are changing quickly as of late. AMD brought out the 7700, 7900, and 7950 (non-x) that are cheaper, generate less heat, and include a fan. There's also been pretty heavy discounts on the 7700x/7900x/7950x AMD chips as well. DDR5 and Motherboard prices for the am5 chips are dropping as well. Microcenter is even including 8GB free with a CPU purchase. The price/perf of the AM5 platform has changes quite a bit in the last month. Intel does win some benchmarks, but often at substantially higher power consumption. The AMD chips run cooler and even significantly reducing the TDP down to 65 watts often has a single digit percentage slow down.

unxdfa 4y ago
The cost in the 7000 series is the motherboards at the moment. They're still extortionately priced. 2x the price of an equivalent Intel one and that hasn't changed. It's improving but nowhere near reasonable. The AM4/B550 combo is still pretty good however. 99% of what I do is single thread bound so I really want to see some single thread power benchmarks but no one seems to bother with those. I'm in the market for a PC with the best single thread performance out there at the moment so I've got several machines configured in pcpartpicker and spreadsheets at the moment :(
- bryanlarsen 4y ago
  A520 motherboards should be coming out soon. Hopefully they're cheap and don't suck.
- sliken 4y ago
  Have you looked recently? I've been tracking DDR5 motherboard (I think the perf is worth it), MicroATX (don't need fullsize), I don't need blinking lights, watercooling systems, wifi, or exotic sound systems, so I go for relatively barebones motherboards. I do want something small, quiet, 2.5G ethernet, and has dual m.2 slots. On Newegg I found an Intel ASRock Riptide for $159 [0]. On Newegg I found an AMD ASRock Riptide for $169 [1]. I'll happily take the AMD and end up with a quieter and cooler system for the $10.00 premium. Debating between a 7700 (non-x), 7700X3D, or 7900 (non-x). Hopefully it lasts as long as my current (2015) desktop. Do you consider a $10 premium "extortionately priced"? [0] https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813162061 https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813162061 [1] https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813162083 https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813162083
  - unxdfa 4y ago
    UK here. Based on my needs, an Asus Prime H610 board that'll take a 13700K is £85. The cheapest AM5 board is £175. (I'm checking one vendor here who I know has a decent returns policy when your system integration goes to hell, another common AMD problem from much experience!)
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - sliken 4y ago
      Ah, wasn't looking that low. That gets you half the memory channels, half the memory bandwidth, half the PCIe, and 40% of the ethernet bandwidth. They go for $100-$110 here, doesn't seem worth saving $50, at least if you plan to keep the system for 5-10 years. BTW, AM5 added the ability to upgrade BIOS without a CPU. So no more nightmares of having to beg a CPU, borrow a CPU from AMD, or RMA to get a compatible CPU<->BIOS setup.
kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]

coffeebeqn 4y ago

Apple to oranges. 12400 has a TDP of 65W while M1 has 13.8W. What can a 15W Intel do? Not much

unxdfa 4y ago
Don't really care. I use my MBP as a desktop machine and the TCO over 5 years including the electricity of the PC is much much lower.
- lillecarl 4y ago
  I use my 150$ hand crafted hammer to screw in screws, but it gets beaten by my 5$ screwdriver at screwing performance, shameful.
  - Groxx 4y ago
    To get an equivalent metaphor here, you'd have to include "the $5 screwdriver also destroys $300/year worth of projects more than the hammer-screw" And then yeah. Shamefully short-sighted to use the $5 tool.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- bcrosby95 4y ago
  Using which equation? I run an 8 year old system76 laptop with a desktop grade CPU and my yearly electricity usage is about 100kwh (I measure pretty much all of our electrical usage), or $35. In my experience, the biggest electricity hog isn't gonna be your CPU, its gonna be your display(s), if you use any. I don't use any external monitors for my work setup.
  - unxdfa 4y ago
    The displays are a big part. I did a full breakdown here of costs if you are interested: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34812247 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34812247

Paianni 4y ago

AMD has the edge on performance per watt though.

faeriechangling 4y ago

>The 13th gen have barely been integrated in stuff and they seem to, at least on single thread, smash AMD in the price/performance ranking. Costs more to run, costs more to make, runs hotter and louder, by "smash" we're usually talking single digit performance gulfs, and performance is worse in a fairly broad amount of applications and where Intel's performance IS better it often is in an application where you would never be able to tell the difference without measurement tools. The 12400 "kicking the m1 in the teeth" is likely due more to software optimisation than the 12400 actually being meaningfully better. Your like of Intel's products as a consumer isn't really a reflection of their competitiveness. The only reason you're willing to buy their products at all is that Intel is cutting their margins to the bone whereas AMD is making stacks on every sale. Intel has had the best single core performance for eons and that hasn't saved them from their decline.

unxdfa 4y ago
In synthetic benchmarks, indeed. In my workloads there's about a 20% lead and yes that might be due to software optimisation etc or something like that but that is a real factor in the outcome. If it saves me 5% of my time that gives me 10 days a year back. To be clear I'm no loyalist. I went from an AMD 3700X to a 2020 M1 Mac Mini originally because that spanked it. Then to an M1 Pro which was regrettably no real improvement. Then to a 12400 because I had one as a comparison point and it was faster. Now likely a 13700K. Next time, it might be AMD, might be an M3. Who knows?! I'm mostly just glad I can jump around and pick whatever is on the market rather than being locked into one product or platform now.
- PartiallyTyped 4y ago
  Personally, I went 4950, 1700x, 5800x, 12700k. I considered giving intel another try after the 5800x, so I went with the 12700k. I needed a computer quickly, and my previous machine was unavailable. The next chance I am giving intel is relatively far into the future. Likely in 5-6 years at best given how many stability issues I have had. Do note that this is pure anecdata, n=1 and likely suffering from a degree of confirmation bias.

BaculumMeumEst 4y ago

MBP is the only computer I can run intense workloads at high performance while it remains completely silent. I’ve been waiting for such a machine for a long time. When intel can match that they’ll have my attention.

unxdfa 4y ago
My 14" MBP is not silent under load. It's not loud but not silent. You can build a suitably quiet PC. Be Quiet power supply, case, fans and cooler. Job done. They run very quiet. I had a 125W TDP CPU in one of them and you could barely hear it under load.
- BaculumMeumEst 4y ago
  I’ve tried some pretty intense undervolts and power throttling but my PCs have always been annoyingly loud. I think I just need to get a case full of noctuas in my next build. But the dgpu will always be loud as shit regardless.
  - jeroenhd 4y ago
    You can get the GPU to be quiet if you go watercooling combined with quiet fans attached to the radiator. Much more expensive, much more complicated, but also much more efficient when it comes to cooling your equipment.
- dvngnt_ 4y ago
  probably not in their form factor and quality
  - unxdfa 4y ago
    Can't disagree with the form factor but the quality is equivalent if you ask me. They both are likely to last 5 years+ and stay out of my way.
mrj 4y ago
My Tuxedo Computers Pulse Gen 2 was specifically built to be quiet. I also have a Macbook Pro (2019) here that run a similar workload for testing, and I can tell you that the Pulse is far quieter. I have 16 cores at 100% right now as I type this and there's no fan noise at all. I'm parsing 10,000+ php files and modifying them for an upgrade. I've done this before and the Mac makes a lot of noise. MBP is good but it's not all there is. This is a AMD Ryzen 7 5700U with a dual fan setup. It's got performance and efficiency cores similar to the newer Apple chips. Just throwing it out there! I hope more people support great laptops like this one.

nottorp 4y ago

> My PC has a 12400 in it which actually realistically kicks my M1 Pro MBP in the teeth on some things which is embarrassing as it's a junk ass end Lenovo desktop machine that cost <$500. And if you factor in power consumption at EU prices?

unxdfa 4y ago
Yes measured with an average power meter. 12400 Lenovo shitbox is £0.26 per day including the monitor (Iiyama 27" 4K). MBP is £0.19 a day including the monitor (Apple Studio Display). From spreadsheet: TCO over 5 years for Apple is £3838 (outlay) + £247 (electricity) = £68.08/month TCO over 5 years for PC is £1045 (outlay) + £405 (electricity) = £24.17/month That's shit change really but the cost difference is immense. Also the PC value has gone up since I bought it as I got it on a one day offer. I can shift it for £120 more than I paid for it. The mac, not so much. The Mac depreciates in the first 18 months more than the entire PC set up and electricity costs.
- paulmd 4y ago
  > including the monitor (Apple Studio Display) honestly it's impressive that you gratuitously threw in a 1700GBP display on one side of the scale and the cost difference was still only 36% lol. Also just because the retail price has gone up doesn't mean you can actually sell the PC for the retail price. Resale value of x86 laptops is garbage... it's better for desktops of course especially if you can retain pieces of it, but this is still a super loaded comparison and even then Apple only came out 36% more expensive according to your numbers?
  - unxdfa 4y ago
    Not sure how you managed to get 36% more expensive. It’s 2.8x the cost. I’m just reporting where I am not how I got there (which was mostly me going “ooh shiny”)
    - paulmd 4y ago
      Those are your numbers, you said GBP 0.26 per day vs GBP 0.19 per day. You didn't show your math on residual value/etc so there's no way for me to go deeper than that, I'm just taking your numbers at face value.

dontlaugh 4y ago

I have a 12400 and a M1 Air. The Air is faster on pretty much anything I've tried, even most benchmarks.

unxdfa 4y ago
Not when you hit swap it’s not.

epolanski 4y ago

All you said is relatively true but ignores better power performance for AMD. "Smashing" ST performance while consuming 150w is not an ideal situation for anyone but gamers and benchmarkers.

PartiallyTyped 4y ago
And most gamers probably lack the cooling needed for those chips.

steponlego 4y ago

Most stuff is multi threaded now, even games.