4 ms·

Maybe his strategy is to be such a fucking idiot that he can pretend there is no way he could mastermind such a big scam.

mikestew 4y ago
That hypothesis comes up repeatedly, but I imagine it would hinge on whether or not judges would say to themselves, "he's too stupid to jail". IANAL, but I believe judgement is based on whether or not you did "it", whatever "it" might be. Then at sentencing a judge could use "stupid" as a mitigating factor. For example, "normally you'd get 20 years, but because you're stupid..." But I can not emphasize enough that IANAL, and this is just (as with most folks, I would guess) something I pulled out of my butt. Based on what little interaction I've had with the U. S. justice system, man, I sure wouldn't let the outcome rest on the judge's view of my intelligence, though.
- munk-a 4y ago
  I believe the above post was mostly in jest but just to clarify - to qualify for any sort of lighter sentencing you'd need to demonstrate a far more impactful intellectual disability. Idiots are everywhere in society - there are idiot billionaires, idiot crypto bros and idiots that you pass on the street everyday. Normal idiocy is not a defense - otherwise it probably would've been significantly easier for Elon Musk to back out of the acquisition of Twitter.
  - cmeacham98 4y ago
    My (albeit limited) understanding is that if SBF's lawyers can convince the jury that he was simply very incompetent that would be better (still a crime, but a less severe one) than if he intentionally defrauded customers. Similar to the difference between murder and manslaughter. I don't think he's actually trying to bolster his defense though, I think he's largely an idiot and used to getting away with almost anything with few/no consequences.
    - brasic 4y ago
      Yeah, playing the fool is much more likely to be an attempt to influence the jury’s view of mens rea. https://www.wsj.com/articles/prosecution-of-sam-bankman-fried-could-rise-or-fall-on-intent-11671065127 https://www.wsj.com/articles/prosecution-of-sam-bankman-frie...
  - Eduard 4y ago
    Additionally, a narcist can be too proud for exploiting a "I did a stupid mistake" defense.
time_to_smile 4y ago
It's remarkable to me the consequences of people telling you you're a mega-genius without you realizing they're telling you for their own benefit. It makes perfect sense why everyone, sincere and fraudster alike, would want to promote SBF as a boy genius. It's a great marketing tool, it helps convince people who don't understand crypto to have faith in the product, and you also get someone who believes the spotlight should be on them, which is particularly useful for any fraudsters who would prefer to remain in the shadows. Clearly SBF never questioned that praise (who would at the time?), and still is operating as though he were smarter and more special than everyone around him. The sad irony is it reveals that he's markedly less clever than most of the people he associates with. Caroline Ellison, at least from what I've seen, seems to have realized quite quickly that the smartest choice was to quickly realize she wasn't a brilliant as she had been told.
- toyg 4y ago
  > [SBF] is operating as though he were smarter and more special than everyone around him I mean, let's be honest among ourselves: in IT this sort of psychological profile is table stakes.
TacticalCoder 4y ago
> Maybe his strategy is to be such a fucking idiot that he can pretend there is no way he could mastermind such a big scam. It's the strategy SBF's father is using too. The current FTX CEO, the one in charge of the bankruptcy, said in front of congress that one house worth $16m was bought in the Bahamas in SBF's parents' name. SBF's father is specialized in tax laws. And he's on video record saying: "I'm helping FTX with legal matters". And what does SBF's father have to say about the real estate bought in its name in the Bahamas? "We weren't aware we had real estate in our names in the Bahamas" (paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact sentence their spokeperson used) I mean... Once it's recorded, in front of congress, that there's real estate bought with stolen money in your name in the Bahamas, there's not that much you can do... Besides playing the complete, total and utter idiot.

mikestew 4y ago

That hypothesis comes up repeatedly, but I imagine it would hinge on whether or not judges would say to themselves, "he's too stupid to jail". IANAL, but I believe judgement is based on whether or not you did "it", whatever "it" might be. Then at sentencing a judge could use "stupid" as a mitigating factor. For example, "normally you'd get 20 years, but because you're stupid..." But I can not emphasize enough that IANAL, and this is just (as with most folks, I would guess) something I pulled out of my butt. Based on what little interaction I've had with the U. S. justice system, man, I sure wouldn't let the outcome rest on the judge's view of my intelligence, though.

munk-a 4y ago
I believe the above post was mostly in jest but just to clarify - to qualify for any sort of lighter sentencing you'd need to demonstrate a far more impactful intellectual disability. Idiots are everywhere in society - there are idiot billionaires, idiot crypto bros and idiots that you pass on the street everyday. Normal idiocy is not a defense - otherwise it probably would've been significantly easier for Elon Musk to back out of the acquisition of Twitter.
- cmeacham98 4y ago
  My (albeit limited) understanding is that if SBF's lawyers can convince the jury that he was simply very incompetent that would be better (still a crime, but a less severe one) than if he intentionally defrauded customers. Similar to the difference between murder and manslaughter. I don't think he's actually trying to bolster his defense though, I think he's largely an idiot and used to getting away with almost anything with few/no consequences.
  - brasic 4y ago
    Yeah, playing the fool is much more likely to be an attempt to influence the jury’s view of mens rea. https://www.wsj.com/articles/prosecution-of-sam-bankman-fried-could-rise-or-fall-on-intent-11671065127 https://www.wsj.com/articles/prosecution-of-sam-bankman-frie...
- Eduard 4y ago
  Additionally, a narcist can be too proud for exploiting a "I did a stupid mistake" defense.

time_to_smile 4y ago

It's remarkable to me the consequences of people telling you you're a mega-genius without you realizing they're telling you for their own benefit. It makes perfect sense why everyone, sincere and fraudster alike, would want to promote SBF as a boy genius. It's a great marketing tool, it helps convince people who don't understand crypto to have faith in the product, and you also get someone who believes the spotlight should be on them, which is particularly useful for any fraudsters who would prefer to remain in the shadows. Clearly SBF never questioned that praise (who would at the time?), and still is operating as though he were smarter and more special than everyone around him. The sad irony is it reveals that he's markedly less clever than most of the people he associates with. Caroline Ellison, at least from what I've seen, seems to have realized quite quickly that the smartest choice was to quickly realize she wasn't a brilliant as she had been told.

toyg 4y ago
> [SBF] is operating as though he were smarter and more special than everyone around him I mean, let's be honest among ourselves: in IT this sort of psychological profile is table stakes.

TacticalCoder 4y ago

> Maybe his strategy is to be such a fucking idiot that he can pretend there is no way he could mastermind such a big scam. It's the strategy SBF's father is using too. The current FTX CEO, the one in charge of the bankruptcy, said in front of congress that one house worth $16m was bought in the Bahamas in SBF's parents' name. SBF's father is specialized in tax laws. And he's on video record saying: "I'm helping FTX with legal matters". And what does SBF's father have to say about the real estate bought in its name in the Bahamas? "We weren't aware we had real estate in our names in the Bahamas" (paraphrasing, I don't remember the exact sentence their spokeperson used) I mean... Once it's recorded, in front of congress, that there's real estate bought with stolen money in your name in the Bahamas, there's not that much you can do... Besides playing the complete, total and utter idiot.