8 ms·

What I Wish Wikipedia and Others Were Saying Today About SOPA/PIPA

183 points by jzb 15y ago

polymatter 15y ago
I sympathize with the sentiment, but I think that saying "what's even more important is that you start paying attention and demand better from your government" is a little antagonistic and will raise conspiracy nut bells. Despite it being absolutely true. And even if they do pay attention most people are defeatist on politics changing. I am no patio11, but they should be stressing SOPA/PIPA as an anti-jobs bills that will destroy Silicon Valley and won't even protect Hollywood jobs. Perhaps employ the fear of China or terrorism to make it seem important too. And most of all, Silicon Valley should be sending highly paid lobbyists too to make laws in their interests. Maybe I'm overly cynical, but relying on public engagement in the long-term is folly.
- rhino42 15y ago
  But a intermediate stance, such as "you should use more than just mass media to learn your issues: consider these five websites" could be an effective message (if people actually browsed those websites / got informed)
  - toyg 15y ago
    I think that's already happened, actually. Mainstream news channel didn't cover SOPA/PIPA until very late; the press didn't know what they were about, and when they did they just kept mum out of self-interest. Nevertheless, a very large mass of people noticed, enough to make extremely powerful congressmen like Smith sweat cold -- that's a very significant number of people who clearly rely on "alternative" online sources for their news and entertainment right now. Are they majority? The next few months (and votes) will tell us. 15 years ago, the DMCA passed with no real opposition. Now, this bill could actually be defeated. The shift might have already happened, and if not, it's really, really close. One day we'll look back trying to find a turning point (the rise of Google? Wikipedia? Facebook?), but I bet historians will set it before 2012.
irishloop 15y ago
That sounds like it's going to cut into my American Idol voting time.
guelo 15y ago
The unified message should have been a simple 'keep the internet free' or some such simple slogan.
nirvana 15y ago
The fundamental problem is the US government has essentially unlimited power (despite the legal basis for its existence, the constitution) and has manipulated the courts and the elections process such that there's little anyone can do about it. Many of these really egregious bills are unpopular with the majority of americans, but their opinions are not represented by the actions of government. There's little they can do to get real reformers elected because the "two party" system focuses on immaterial differences between the parties and on these issues the parties are pretty close. Most democrats and republicans voted for the PATRIOT ACT (and its renewal and extension under Obama) as well as NDAA, etc. I'd love for someone to find a way to make democracy work. If there were a way to keep the US government constrained to the powers enumerated for it by the constitution, then we wouldn't have these problems. But the only "checks and balances" on the government are all part of the government, and thus have long ago been compromised, there's no real oversight. That's the fundamental problem. If SOPA is "defeated" it will just rise up under another name in a few months. SOPA itself is only the latest attempt to do this- they've been attempting to gain this level of control over the internet using the excuse of fighting terrorism for several years now.
- rayiner 15y ago
  This is a pretty empty rant. Nothing about SOPA/PIPA is the product of the government overstepping its Constitutional powers. Whatever else it might be, the internet is a medium of interstate commerce, squarely within Congress's power to regulate. Moreover, the regulation in question concerns a property right created by the Constitution itself. There are certain due process, etc, arguments you can make at the edges, but the fundamental idea of SOPA/PIPA are squarely Constitutional.
  - bbq 15y ago
    > the internet is a medium of interstate commerce Only in part. Only downloaded goods use the internet as a medium for commerce. The rest of the time, it's for communication (speech).
    - wahnfrieden 15y ago
DrCatbox 15y ago
There must be an alternative to SOPA/PIPA/NDAA, we must push for "Free and open Internets Act" - fair game for all, "Packet Network Liberty Act" - no to government protecting failing business models/corporations, and "Liberties of the internets Act" - unsupervised liberty to connect and communicate unless there is strong court order for surveillence.
michaelochurch 15y ago
SOPA has relieved me of any illusion that the Democratic Party is at all useful or decent. They're just as bad as the other guys. I will be likely voting Republican (for the first time in my life) for at least some of the 2012 elections, out of my commitment to vote against any incumbent who supports or votes for SOPA. Vote the bastards out. #FireSOPA #FirePIPA
- irishloop 15y ago
  While I agree with your sentiment that the Democratic Party isn't useful or decent, they are not "just as bad." Both parties are full of slimy politicians, admittedly. But if given the choice, I will continue to support the slimy politicians who protect a women's right to choose and start less wars in general. It might not be a grand ethical stand, but these issues matter to me. That being said, I understand people's frustrations with the system and wish there was a legitimate way to support third parties in a way that felt effective.
  - jlarocco 15y ago
    "That being said, I understand people's frustrations with the system and wish there was a legitimate way to support third parties in a way that felt effective." That makes no sense. What better way is there to support third parties than voting for them? Your vote isn't going to be the deciding factor in the election, so why not vote for the third party candidate who most closely matches your views?
    - mikeash 15y ago
      The better way to support third parties is to vote for them in a system where votes for smaller third parties actually make some form of difference, like a proportional representation system.
      - jlarocco 15y ago
        That may be true, but one way to guarantee we never move to such a system is to keep voting Democrat or Republican.
pasbesoin 15y ago
Amen
dmor 15y ago
Reposting my blog comment here (because I know people don't read all the way down): I agree and we need to all become more vigilant. I also implore you, as a member of the news media who is paying attention - please help us stay informed. Government is big and complex and we laymen have work to accomplish day-to-day. Help us find information, point us to new sources, new ideas. Challenge us. Its not that we can't think, but simply that we are busy producing and I personally feel their are few news sorces that give me the facts, respect my intelligence, and dig in deep.
femto 15y ago
Perhaps the threat will dissipate over time, despite the electorates limited attention span, since the electorate is continually voting with its eyeballs and brain space? Murdoch (and ilk) are terrified of the Internet, as it dilutes their influence. Once their influence dilutes past a certain point, people and politicians will stop listening to them. Is SOPA the beginning of the end, a final effort at shoring up their power base before reaching the point of no return to influence?
MarkTraceur 15y ago
Here's another way of looking at it: We can get Congress to vote down SOPA/PIPA, or alternatively get the next Congress to repeal it, but there's a fundamental flaw in the way that we, the consumers, do business. Yes, our Congress is taking severe steps in the wrong direction, but we contributed significantly to that direction as well. The permanent solution is not to stop one law or even a multitude of laws in perpetuity. The permanent solution is to change the methods by which we create (and allow to be created) copyrighted material. That means encouraging the use of Creative Commons and Free Software licenses like the GPL, Apache, BSD, and WTFPL (to name a few). We, as consumers, need to make shifts that not only deny these laws to affect us to our detriment, but also deny the companies supporting these laws the money to push them through. In short, America and the rest of the world contributed heavily to these actions by Congress. Even as these laws get voted down, we must start to take steps that prevent them from happening again.
rmc 15y ago
Erk, this is getting very politic-y and not the sort of content that should be on HN. I've flagged this.

183 points by jzb 15y ago

I sympathize with the sentiment, but I think that saying "what's even more important is that you start paying attention and demand better from your government" is a little antagonistic and will raise conspiracy nut bells. Despite it being absolutely true. And even if they do pay attention most people are defeatist on politics changing. I am no patio11, but they should be stressing SOPA/PIPA as an anti-jobs bills that will destroy Silicon Valley and won't even protect Hollywood jobs. Perhaps employ the fear of China or terrorism to make it seem important too. And most of all, Silicon Valley should be sending highly paid lobbyists too to make laws in their interests. Maybe I'm overly cynical, but relying on public engagement in the long-term is folly.

rhino42 15y ago
But a intermediate stance, such as "you should use more than just mass media to learn your issues: consider these five websites" could be an effective message (if people actually browsed those websites / got informed)
- toyg 15y ago
  I think that's already happened, actually. Mainstream news channel didn't cover SOPA/PIPA until very late; the press didn't know what they were about, and when they did they just kept mum out of self-interest. Nevertheless, a very large mass of people noticed, enough to make extremely powerful congressmen like Smith sweat cold -- that's a very significant number of people who clearly rely on "alternative" online sources for their news and entertainment right now. Are they majority? The next few months (and votes) will tell us. 15 years ago, the DMCA passed with no real opposition. Now, this bill could actually be defeated. The shift might have already happened, and if not, it's really, really close. One day we'll look back trying to find a turning point (the rise of Google? Wikipedia? Facebook?), but I bet historians will set it before 2012.

irishloop 15y ago

That sounds like it's going to cut into my American Idol voting time.

guelo 15y ago

The unified message should have been a simple 'keep the internet free' or some such simple slogan.

nirvana 15y ago

The fundamental problem is the US government has essentially unlimited power (despite the legal basis for its existence, the constitution) and has manipulated the courts and the elections process such that there's little anyone can do about it. Many of these really egregious bills are unpopular with the majority of americans, but their opinions are not represented by the actions of government. There's little they can do to get real reformers elected because the "two party" system focuses on immaterial differences between the parties and on these issues the parties are pretty close. Most democrats and republicans voted for the PATRIOT ACT (and its renewal and extension under Obama) as well as NDAA, etc. I'd love for someone to find a way to make democracy work. If there were a way to keep the US government constrained to the powers enumerated for it by the constitution, then we wouldn't have these problems. But the only "checks and balances" on the government are all part of the government, and thus have long ago been compromised, there's no real oversight. That's the fundamental problem. If SOPA is "defeated" it will just rise up under another name in a few months. SOPA itself is only the latest attempt to do this- they've been attempting to gain this level of control over the internet using the excuse of fighting terrorism for several years now.

rayiner 15y ago
This is a pretty empty rant. Nothing about SOPA/PIPA is the product of the government overstepping its Constitutional powers. Whatever else it might be, the internet is a medium of interstate commerce, squarely within Congress's power to regulate. Moreover, the regulation in question concerns a property right created by the Constitution itself. There are certain due process, etc, arguments you can make at the edges, but the fundamental idea of SOPA/PIPA are squarely Constitutional.
- bbq 15y ago
  > the internet is a medium of interstate commerce Only in part. Only downloaded goods use the internet as a medium for commerce. The rest of the time, it's for communication (speech).
  - wahnfrieden 15y ago

DrCatbox 15y ago

There must be an alternative to SOPA/PIPA/NDAA, we must push for "Free and open Internets Act" - fair game for all, "Packet Network Liberty Act" - no to government protecting failing business models/corporations, and "Liberties of the internets Act" - unsupervised liberty to connect and communicate unless there is strong court order for surveillence.

michaelochurch 15y ago

SOPA has relieved me of any illusion that the Democratic Party is at all useful or decent. They're just as bad as the other guys. I will be likely voting Republican (for the first time in my life) for at least some of the 2012 elections, out of my commitment to vote against any incumbent who supports or votes for SOPA. Vote the bastards out. #FireSOPA #FirePIPA

irishloop 15y ago
While I agree with your sentiment that the Democratic Party isn't useful or decent, they are not "just as bad." Both parties are full of slimy politicians, admittedly. But if given the choice, I will continue to support the slimy politicians who protect a women's right to choose and start less wars in general. It might not be a grand ethical stand, but these issues matter to me. That being said, I understand people's frustrations with the system and wish there was a legitimate way to support third parties in a way that felt effective.
- jlarocco 15y ago
  "That being said, I understand people's frustrations with the system and wish there was a legitimate way to support third parties in a way that felt effective." That makes no sense. What better way is there to support third parties than voting for them? Your vote isn't going to be the deciding factor in the election, so why not vote for the third party candidate who most closely matches your views?
  - mikeash 15y ago
    The better way to support third parties is to vote for them in a system where votes for smaller third parties actually make some form of difference, like a proportional representation system.
    - jlarocco 15y ago
      That may be true, but one way to guarantee we never move to such a system is to keep voting Democrat or Republican.

pasbesoin 15y ago

Amen

dmor 15y ago

Reposting my blog comment here (because I know people don't read all the way down): I agree and we need to all become more vigilant. I also implore you, as a member of the news media who is paying attention - please help us stay informed. Government is big and complex and we laymen have work to accomplish day-to-day. Help us find information, point us to new sources, new ideas. Challenge us. Its not that we can't think, but simply that we are busy producing and I personally feel their are few news sorces that give me the facts, respect my intelligence, and dig in deep.

femto 15y ago

Perhaps the threat will dissipate over time, despite the electorates limited attention span, since the electorate is continually voting with its eyeballs and brain space? Murdoch (and ilk) are terrified of the Internet, as it dilutes their influence. Once their influence dilutes past a certain point, people and politicians will stop listening to them. Is SOPA the beginning of the end, a final effort at shoring up their power base before reaching the point of no return to influence?

MarkTraceur 15y ago

Here's another way of looking at it: We can get Congress to vote down SOPA/PIPA, or alternatively get the next Congress to repeal it, but there's a fundamental flaw in the way that we, the consumers, do business. Yes, our Congress is taking severe steps in the wrong direction, but we contributed significantly to that direction as well. The permanent solution is not to stop one law or even a multitude of laws in perpetuity. The permanent solution is to change the methods by which we create (and allow to be created) copyrighted material. That means encouraging the use of Creative Commons and Free Software licenses like the GPL, Apache, BSD, and WTFPL (to name a few). We, as consumers, need to make shifts that not only deny these laws to affect us to our detriment, but also deny the companies supporting these laws the money to push them through. In short, America and the rest of the world contributed heavily to these actions by Congress. Even as these laws get voted down, we must start to take steps that prevent them from happening again.

rmc 15y ago

Erk, this is getting very politic-y and not the sort of content that should be on HN. I've flagged this.