8 ms·

i was expecting to find something about society-wide chronic stress, lo and behold > And chronic stress has been found to deplete the body of the energy it nee

i was expecting to find something about society-wide chronic stress, lo and behold > And chronic stress has been found to deplete the body of the energy it needs to make milk. lets just say our profit and growth driven society is not structured to nurture humans, neither grown nor newborn.

robertlagrant 4y ago
How is society is profit and growth driven?
- tstrimple 4y ago
  It's the nature of a capitalist society. It's right in the definition. > an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.
  - codekansas 4y ago
    Defining an economic system as growth and profit driven is sort of tautological though, given the definition of "economics": > The branch of knowledge concerned with the production, consumption, and transfer of wealth. Original question was about "society" which is sort of nebulous, but I think (hope?) most people wouldn't define their relationships with their family and close friends, or with most of the world around them, through the lens of an economic system, be it capitalism, communism, mercantilism or feudalism.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - this_user 4y ago
    You make it sound like there is a difference between capitalism and human nature, but there really isn't. Capitalism is merely an institutionalised expression of the latter, hence its longevity. Humans by their very nature possess the instinct to outcompete their rivals as a result of millions of years of evolution. Anyone who was not like that, was removed from the gene pool by those who were either by taking their resources or by outright murdering them.
    - _oghd 4y ago
      longevity? uh... no. capitalism is very young in human society. for clarity, feudalism lasted twice as long as capitalism has currently existed. and while competition has dominated the scientific and cultural narrative for a while, that's not the exclusive interpretation, or even necessarily the best or correct one.
      - kneebonian 4y ago
        I have to ask what do you mean by capitalism then? Was the blacksmith selling the products of his labor to people in the community not capitalism? What exactly do you mean by capitalism?
        BlueTemplar 4y ago
        In the sense that most people were manorial serfs and didn't use money and also the merchant class was despised by the ruling landowner/warrior class before they were overthrown by the merchants around 1800. Now, sure, that manorial land was technically the means of production, and those in charge of these manors technically owned it (maybe much more like we are used to in civilizational phases, like with the Roman empire ?), but isn't this really stretching the intuitions we have around "capitalism" ?
        _oghd 4y ago
        personally, i adopt the marxist analysis of capitalism being a particular mode of production where private productive property is owned and controlled by the owners/shareholders and labor is exchanged for wages. if we are going to make a distinction between feudalism and capitalism, surely we can similarly make a distinction between capitalism and X, instead of simply defining capitalism uselessly as "free markets" or "human nature." it's inclusive of the institutions which uphold these relations.
- mxkopy 4y ago
  Presumably OP is talking about Western societies, in which the dominant form of getting sustenance involves making money, which in turn involves following business incentives.
  - robertlagrant 4y ago
    There are a giant number of people employed by the public sector where I'm from. Not everything is the private sector, and a lot of the private sector is not about relentless growth and profit.
    - mxkopy 4y ago
      It's deeper than private vs. public. It's more about the "employed" bit. For a very long time, helping your community and being involved in it meant you got to eat. That's no longer the case. It's perfectly viable to clock in, say nothing to anyone, clock out, repeat. It's also possible to give all you can to your community and starve to death. The survival strategy is no longer "seek community" but "seek profit", because human society is now more dangerous and rewarding than the natural environment.
rcme 4y ago
Chronic stress is one of many, many reasons listed. It's confirmation bias to go into something looking for a particular answer. In the article, the mention of chronic stress is more of a passing remark and isn't discussed other than that one quote. But it sounds like your takeaway is that chronic stress is definitely one of the main contributing factors. The article doesn't support that.
- LesZedCB 4y ago
  more the inverse. my hypothesis is stress is high in society and there are many unknown effects. this is potentially one of the many effects.
  - rcme 4y ago
    > my hypothesis is stress is high in society and there are many unknown effects. Exactly. You have a prior hypothesis about stress. This article makes a brief mention of stress and you take it as evidence of your hypothesis even though the article doesn’t support that at all.
    - LesZedCB 4y ago
      here's the paper cited in the article..? https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-90980-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-90980-3 my point is, I'm not a scientist, so pointing out a bias (in my case a preconceived speculation) won't change my methodology for a future study. you're just going "nuh uh" with nothing else to say. I am creating a narrative, and based on the discussion from my comment, it was exactly the narrative I wanted to provide.
8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago
I'm surprised we're more stressed now than humans from thousands of years ago who somehow managed to produce plenty of breast-milk. They didn't have as much safety from pillaging tribes, hungry animals, they didn't have antibiotics, anesthesia or life-saving surgeries. They didn't have access to a grocery store a short drive away, or a fire department. Can all of the advancements in human QoL above be undone by turning on CNN on one's 70" LCD TV in one's warm, electrified, illuminated and weather-proofed home?
- willcipriano 4y ago
  They didn't have a newscaster to inform them of any of that. The only threats they knew of were ones they personally witnessed. People today worry about the climate of the planet, back them you'd worry about if you had enough firewood for the night.
  - LesZedCB 4y ago
    indeed there was no machine-driven bombardment of (mis)information tailor made to provoke a fear/anger response
    - gnarbarian 4y ago
      we are approaching a day when every aspect of our lives will be monitored and scrutinized for maximum social compliance and productivity. "our records indicate you have not used your cloud connected CPAP machine frequently enough. a healthy night's sleep is necessary for maximum productivity at your place of employment. you must use this machine on average 6 hours per day or the portion already paid by your insurance will be rescinded and charged to you. a copy of this email was also sent to your supervisor" "your smart speaker indicated that you have expressed illegal opinions while home alone, this recording has been forwarded to the Scottish criminal justice system for review" "healthy employees are critical to our business. To that end we are issuing every employee a smart watch to help monitor and enforce our physical activity requirements to bring down our medical insurance costs"
CrHn3 4y ago
The line from that article is a poor interpretation of that study. The study says, "Psychosocial stress may affect the composition of breast milk via several pathways." If I'm reading it correctly, a single sample was taken from 146 women. Breastmilk composition tends to be higher in fats and carbohydrates in the first few weeks of life and varies by time of day[1]. It's highly variable (even within a single feeding) in composition, depending on many factors, like if an infant is sick and their age. Breastfeeding duration seemed like it may be negatively associated with cortisol in school age children in one study[2]. If that's the case, the best thing a mother in a stressful environment can do is breastfeed. 1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33017792/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33017792/ 2. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355137223_Breastfeeding_and_cortisol_in_hair_in_children https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355137223_Breastfee...

robertlagrant 4y ago

How is society is profit and growth driven?

tstrimple 4y ago
It's the nature of a capitalist society. It's right in the definition. > an economic and political system in which a country's trade and industry are controlled by private owners for profit.
- codekansas 4y ago
  Defining an economic system as growth and profit driven is sort of tautological though, given the definition of "economics": > The branch of knowledge concerned with the production, consumption, and transfer of wealth. Original question was about "society" which is sort of nebulous, but I think (hope?) most people wouldn't define their relationships with their family and close friends, or with most of the world around them, through the lens of an economic system, be it capitalism, communism, mercantilism or feudalism.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- this_user 4y ago
  You make it sound like there is a difference between capitalism and human nature, but there really isn't. Capitalism is merely an institutionalised expression of the latter, hence its longevity. Humans by their very nature possess the instinct to outcompete their rivals as a result of millions of years of evolution. Anyone who was not like that, was removed from the gene pool by those who were either by taking their resources or by outright murdering them.
  - _oghd 4y ago
    longevity? uh... no. capitalism is very young in human society. for clarity, feudalism lasted twice as long as capitalism has currently existed. and while competition has dominated the scientific and cultural narrative for a while, that's not the exclusive interpretation, or even necessarily the best or correct one.
    - kneebonian 4y ago
      I have to ask what do you mean by capitalism then? Was the blacksmith selling the products of his labor to people in the community not capitalism? What exactly do you mean by capitalism?
      - BlueTemplar 4y ago
        In the sense that most people were manorial serfs and didn't use money and also the merchant class was despised by the ruling landowner/warrior class before they were overthrown by the merchants around 1800. Now, sure, that manorial land was technically the means of production, and those in charge of these manors technically owned it (maybe much more like we are used to in civilizational phases, like with the Roman empire ?), but isn't this really stretching the intuitions we have around "capitalism" ?
      - _oghd 4y ago
        personally, i adopt the marxist analysis of capitalism being a particular mode of production where private productive property is owned and controlled by the owners/shareholders and labor is exchanged for wages. if we are going to make a distinction between feudalism and capitalism, surely we can similarly make a distinction between capitalism and X, instead of simply defining capitalism uselessly as "free markets" or "human nature." it's inclusive of the institutions which uphold these relations.
mxkopy 4y ago
Presumably OP is talking about Western societies, in which the dominant form of getting sustenance involves making money, which in turn involves following business incentives.
- robertlagrant 4y ago
  There are a giant number of people employed by the public sector where I'm from. Not everything is the private sector, and a lot of the private sector is not about relentless growth and profit.
  - mxkopy 4y ago
    It's deeper than private vs. public. It's more about the "employed" bit. For a very long time, helping your community and being involved in it meant you got to eat. That's no longer the case. It's perfectly viable to clock in, say nothing to anyone, clock out, repeat. It's also possible to give all you can to your community and starve to death. The survival strategy is no longer "seek community" but "seek profit", because human society is now more dangerous and rewarding than the natural environment.

rcme 4y ago

Chronic stress is one of many, many reasons listed. It's confirmation bias to go into something looking for a particular answer. In the article, the mention of chronic stress is more of a passing remark and isn't discussed other than that one quote. But it sounds like your takeaway is that chronic stress is definitely one of the main contributing factors. The article doesn't support that.

LesZedCB 4y ago
more the inverse. my hypothesis is stress is high in society and there are many unknown effects. this is potentially one of the many effects.
- rcme 4y ago
  > my hypothesis is stress is high in society and there are many unknown effects. Exactly. You have a prior hypothesis about stress. This article makes a brief mention of stress and you take it as evidence of your hypothesis even though the article doesn’t support that at all.
  - LesZedCB 4y ago
    here's the paper cited in the article..? https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-90980-3 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-90980-3 my point is, I'm not a scientist, so pointing out a bias (in my case a preconceived speculation) won't change my methodology for a future study. you're just going "nuh uh" with nothing else to say. I am creating a narrative, and based on the discussion from my comment, it was exactly the narrative I wanted to provide.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 4y ago

I'm surprised we're more stressed now than humans from thousands of years ago who somehow managed to produce plenty of breast-milk. They didn't have as much safety from pillaging tribes, hungry animals, they didn't have antibiotics, anesthesia or life-saving surgeries. They didn't have access to a grocery store a short drive away, or a fire department. Can all of the advancements in human QoL above be undone by turning on CNN on one's 70" LCD TV in one's warm, electrified, illuminated and weather-proofed home?

willcipriano 4y ago
They didn't have a newscaster to inform them of any of that. The only threats they knew of were ones they personally witnessed. People today worry about the climate of the planet, back them you'd worry about if you had enough firewood for the night.
- LesZedCB 4y ago
  indeed there was no machine-driven bombardment of (mis)information tailor made to provoke a fear/anger response
  - gnarbarian 4y ago
    we are approaching a day when every aspect of our lives will be monitored and scrutinized for maximum social compliance and productivity. "our records indicate you have not used your cloud connected CPAP machine frequently enough. a healthy night's sleep is necessary for maximum productivity at your place of employment. you must use this machine on average 6 hours per day or the portion already paid by your insurance will be rescinded and charged to you. a copy of this email was also sent to your supervisor" "your smart speaker indicated that you have expressed illegal opinions while home alone, this recording has been forwarded to the Scottish criminal justice system for review" "healthy employees are critical to our business. To that end we are issuing every employee a smart watch to help monitor and enforce our physical activity requirements to bring down our medical insurance costs"

CrHn3 4y ago

The line from that article is a poor interpretation of that study. The study says, "Psychosocial stress may affect the composition of breast milk via several pathways." If I'm reading it correctly, a single sample was taken from 146 women. Breastmilk composition tends to be higher in fats and carbohydrates in the first few weeks of life and varies by time of day[1]. It's highly variable (even within a single feeding) in composition, depending on many factors, like if an infant is sick and their age. Breastfeeding duration seemed like it may be negatively associated with cortisol in school age children in one study[2]. If that's the case, the best thing a mother in a stressful environment can do is breastfeed. 1. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33017792/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33017792/ 2. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355137223_Breastfeeding_and_cortisol_in_hair_in_children https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355137223_Breastfee...