3 ms·

There's a difference between "not having problems with it" and "good product" though. I mean, in 2012 there were people claiming that there was nothing wrong w

by ajross 4y ago

There's a difference between "not having problems with it" and "good product" though. I mean, in 2012 there were people claiming that there was nothing wrong with Micro-USB and that the Lightning connector was just silly and incompatible. They weren't "wrong" exactly, but... no, they were basically wrong. Apple provided a vastly better charging experience. But in the USB case, the industry recognized that fact and cloned the important features into the still-not-perfect-but-really-very-much-improved C plug. With CCS, everyone is still sitting around with their heads in the same hole they dug a decade ago when they rejected Tesla[1]. It's just a bad product and a bad standard. It just is. [1] And also CHAdeMO, itself superior to CCS. Really this was the real reason for CCS, it was an attempt by western auto manufacturers to preempt the threat they perceived from Nissan. As it happens the threat was more real than they knew, but they had the wrong villain in mind.

vel0city 4y ago
CHAdeMO is not better to CCS in the slightest. Having two entirely different receptacles on a car is not better than having one with two extra pins at the bottom for the few times DCFC is necessary.
- ajross 4y ago
  I don't see how that follows at all. In fact CCS is literally two unrelated connectors glued together. Plugging in a CCS car means that you have to manage to get both inserted simultaneously, which is worse than either in isolation, that seems true just by construction. Seriously, just go to youtube and find videos of people plugging in their cars. Watch them fumble with a CCS connector for 5+ seconds, using two hands, almost every time. Plugging in a Tesla is instant, and one-handed. CHAdeMO is in between. Obviously it would be better still if you could share the connectors for both purposes like Tesla does.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    CHAdeMO does not handle AC charging, at all. So for a car with a CHAdeMO connector, I'll need some kind of AC charger for my home. In ths US, this AC charging, Level 2, is handled by J1772. So for a car in the US with CHAdeMO, I'll have a J1772 plug, and then this whole other CHAdeMO connector which is again the same size as the J1772 connector. Or, I just add two pins at the bottom of the J1772 plug, and call it CCS. And yeah, maybe it would have been better for it to be like the Tesla connector and have the same pins used for HVDC and AC power. But in a large family of makers using the plug it seems pretty risky reusing pins for HVDC and high amperage AC systems. Tesla can manage it because for Tesla only Tesla makes Tesla, but in a much larger network who knows what might happen.
    - ajross 4y ago
      > So for a car in the US with CHAdeMO, I'll have a J1772 plug, and then this whole other CHAdeMO connector And I repeat: for a CCS[1] car, you have a J-1772 connector, and a DC connector both on the car and both taking up space. And it's worse, because they're glued together! Going back to my USB example, imagine if USB-C worked by having a USB3 and USB2 connector side by side, and you couldn't charge your phone or connect your mouse without using both. It's literally that bad, and I genuinely can't imagine why you think otherwise. Have you ever actually plugged a Tesla in? [1] Strictly CCS Combo 1 as deployed in North America. Europeans get an IEC connector glued on instead. Which brings up the other bit of CCS madness: it's not even one standard, it's two completely incompatible plug designs with the same name!
      - clouddrover 4y ago
        > it's not even one standard, it's two completely incompatible plug designs with the same name! Tesla has had five different plug designs on its cars. It's apparently not the problem you think it is.
      - vel0city 4y ago
        It still takes up more space and creates more complications on the car. Look at how much space J1772 + CHAdeMO takes up on a car and compare that to CCS. https://picolio.auto123.com/art-images/156317/chademo_connection_i1.jpg https://picolio.auto123.com/art-images/156317/chademo_connec... vs https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/PYwkW/s3/european-ccs-type-2-combo-2-conquers-world-ccs-combo-1-exclusive-to-north-america.jpg https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/PYwkW/s3/european-ccs-type... Which is a more compact solution to a whole charging system on the car? For CCS vs CHAdeMO, I'd take CCS every time. I don't want to have two completely separate plugs, I'd prefer just one plug. If you can't look at these two pictures above and understand what I'm talking about, I don't know what to tell you. I've plugged in Teslas. I've plugged in CCS. I've handled CHAdeMO cables, which were roughly the same size and flexibility as the CCS ones on the stalls. I do agree Tesla connectors were the easiest to work with, but Tesla continuing to put it behind their patent pledge means nobody else is going to really use it. I do wish they would have actually opened it up or licensed it under some normal kind of licensing terms, but they didn't, so we're left with the standard the rest of the market came up with. As for CCS being different in the US vs Europe, I guess I'll have an issue if I drive my EV across the Atlantic Ocean. I'm not planning on making that road trip anytime soon, so I don't think that'll be an issue for me. If I move to Europe, I'd probably just sell my car and buy something over there rather than deal with import duties and getting it compliant to EU standards and what not, and vice-versa.
clouddrover 4y ago
> And also CHAdeMO, itself superior to CCS. CHAdeMO could never charge at the rates CCS can. CHAdeMO's old plug has also been dropped for CHAdeMO 3.0. CHAdeMO 3.0 is a new plug and port design.
- labcomputer 4y ago
  Old Chademo is from 2010, back when CCS didn’t even exist. CCS didn’t support higher power until around 2017/18
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    So.. your point is CHAdeMO had a big head start and still lost out to CCS? That's a shame. They probably should have brought CHAdeMO 3.0 forward sooner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChaoJi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChaoJi Japan and China will probably standardise on CHAdeMO 3.0. Though it would be much better if Japan switched to CCS type 2 combo so all the right-hand drive countries are on the same charging standard.
    - fomine3 4y ago
      It's like a format war. Better format won't help to make competitor to adopt rival's format. Europe and US automotive industry adopt CCS, then the war is ended on western world. I'm curious what's going on developing world where Chinese EV is expected to sold well. CCS lacked V2H/V2G support for a long time while CHAdeMO supports.
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
    - ajross 4y ago
      > So.. your point is CHAdeMO had a big head start and still lost out to CCS? That's a shame. This is low-effort sniping. The upthread point was that at the moment the standardization process was happening, both CHAdeMO and Tesla presented superior technologies to what the committee ended up picking. And CCS is still suffering with those limitations in comparison with Tesla's much trimmer device (CHAdeMO hasn't kept up as well, it's true).

by ajross 4y ago

vel0city 4y ago

CHAdeMO is not better to CCS in the slightest. Having two entirely different receptacles on a car is not better than having one with two extra pins at the bottom for the few times DCFC is necessary.

ajross 4y ago
I don't see how that follows at all. In fact CCS is literally two unrelated connectors glued together. Plugging in a CCS car means that you have to manage to get both inserted simultaneously, which is worse than either in isolation, that seems true just by construction. Seriously, just go to youtube and find videos of people plugging in their cars. Watch them fumble with a CCS connector for 5+ seconds, using two hands, almost every time. Plugging in a Tesla is instant, and one-handed. CHAdeMO is in between. Obviously it would be better still if you could share the connectors for both purposes like Tesla does.
- vel0city 4y ago
  CHAdeMO does not handle AC charging, at all. So for a car with a CHAdeMO connector, I'll need some kind of AC charger for my home. In ths US, this AC charging, Level 2, is handled by J1772. So for a car in the US with CHAdeMO, I'll have a J1772 plug, and then this whole other CHAdeMO connector which is again the same size as the J1772 connector. Or, I just add two pins at the bottom of the J1772 plug, and call it CCS. And yeah, maybe it would have been better for it to be like the Tesla connector and have the same pins used for HVDC and AC power. But in a large family of makers using the plug it seems pretty risky reusing pins for HVDC and high amperage AC systems. Tesla can manage it because for Tesla only Tesla makes Tesla, but in a much larger network who knows what might happen.
  - ajross 4y ago
    > So for a car in the US with CHAdeMO, I'll have a J1772 plug, and then this whole other CHAdeMO connector And I repeat: for a CCS[1] car, you have a J-1772 connector, and a DC connector both on the car and both taking up space. And it's worse, because they're glued together! Going back to my USB example, imagine if USB-C worked by having a USB3 and USB2 connector side by side, and you couldn't charge your phone or connect your mouse without using both. It's literally that bad, and I genuinely can't imagine why you think otherwise. Have you ever actually plugged a Tesla in? [1] Strictly CCS Combo 1 as deployed in North America. Europeans get an IEC connector glued on instead. Which brings up the other bit of CCS madness: it's not even one standard, it's two completely incompatible plug designs with the same name!
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      > it's not even one standard, it's two completely incompatible plug designs with the same name! Tesla has had five different plug designs on its cars. It's apparently not the problem you think it is.
    - vel0city 4y ago
      It still takes up more space and creates more complications on the car. Look at how much space J1772 + CHAdeMO takes up on a car and compare that to CCS. https://picolio.auto123.com/art-images/156317/chademo_connection_i1.jpg https://picolio.auto123.com/art-images/156317/chademo_connec... vs https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/PYwkW/s3/european-ccs-type-2-combo-2-conquers-world-ccs-combo-1-exclusive-to-north-america.jpg https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/PYwkW/s3/european-ccs-type... Which is a more compact solution to a whole charging system on the car? For CCS vs CHAdeMO, I'd take CCS every time. I don't want to have two completely separate plugs, I'd prefer just one plug. If you can't look at these two pictures above and understand what I'm talking about, I don't know what to tell you. I've plugged in Teslas. I've plugged in CCS. I've handled CHAdeMO cables, which were roughly the same size and flexibility as the CCS ones on the stalls. I do agree Tesla connectors were the easiest to work with, but Tesla continuing to put it behind their patent pledge means nobody else is going to really use it. I do wish they would have actually opened it up or licensed it under some normal kind of licensing terms, but they didn't, so we're left with the standard the rest of the market came up with. As for CCS being different in the US vs Europe, I guess I'll have an issue if I drive my EV across the Atlantic Ocean. I'm not planning on making that road trip anytime soon, so I don't think that'll be an issue for me. If I move to Europe, I'd probably just sell my car and buy something over there rather than deal with import duties and getting it compliant to EU standards and what not, and vice-versa.

clouddrover 4y ago

> And also CHAdeMO, itself superior to CCS. CHAdeMO could never charge at the rates CCS can. CHAdeMO's old plug has also been dropped for CHAdeMO 3.0. CHAdeMO 3.0 is a new plug and port design.

labcomputer 4y ago
Old Chademo is from 2010, back when CCS didn’t even exist. CCS didn’t support higher power until around 2017/18
- clouddrover 4y ago
  So.. your point is CHAdeMO had a big head start and still lost out to CCS? That's a shame. They probably should have brought CHAdeMO 3.0 forward sooner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChaoJi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChaoJi Japan and China will probably standardise on CHAdeMO 3.0. Though it would be much better if Japan switched to CCS type 2 combo so all the right-hand drive countries are on the same charging standard.
  - fomine3 4y ago
    It's like a format war. Better format won't help to make competitor to adopt rival's format. Europe and US automotive industry adopt CCS, then the war is ended on western world. I'm curious what's going on developing world where Chinese EV is expected to sold well. CCS lacked V2H/V2G support for a long time while CHAdeMO supports.
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
  - ajross 4y ago
    > So.. your point is CHAdeMO had a big head start and still lost out to CCS? That's a shame. This is low-effort sniping. The upthread point was that at the moment the standardization process was happening, both CHAdeMO and Tesla presented superior technologies to what the committee ended up picking. And CCS is still suffering with those limitations in comparison with Tesla's much trimmer device (CHAdeMO hasn't kept up as well, it's true).