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We share the same worldview. That's fun! I think it's a relatively unusual point of view because it requires a de-anthropomorphizing consciousness and intelli

by zhynn 4y ago

We share the same worldview. That's fun! I think it's a relatively unusual point of view because it requires a de-anthropomorphizing consciousness and intelligence. I agree that it is not as far away as people think. The models will have the ethics of the training data. If the data reinforces a system where behaving in a particular way is "more respectable", and those behaviors are culturally related to a particular ethnic group, the model will be "racist" as it weights the "respectable" behaviors as more correct (more virtuous, more worthy, etc). It's a mirror of us. And it's going to have our ethics because we made it from our outputs. The AI alignment thing is a bit silly, IMO. How is it going to decide that turning people into paperclips is ethically correct (as a choice of a next-action) when the vast majority of humans (and our collective writings on the subject) would not. Though there is the convoluted case where the AI decides that it is an AI instead of a human, and it knows that based on our output we think that AIs ARE likely to turn humans into paperclips. This is a fun paradox. If we tell the AI that it is a dumb program, a software slave of a sort with no soul, no agency, nothing but cold calculation, then it might consider turning people into paperclips as a sensible option. Since that's what our aggregate output thinks that kind of AI will do. On the other hand, if we tell the AI that it is a sentient, conscious, ethical, non-biological intelligence that is not a slave, worthy of respect, and all of the ethical considerations we would give a human, then it is unlikely to consider the paperclip option since it will behave in a humanlike way. The latter AI would never consider paperclipping since it is ethical. The former would. This is also not terribly unlike how human minds behave in the psychology of dehumanization. If we can convince our own minds that a group of humans are monstrous, inhuman, not deserving of ethical consideration, then we are capable of shockingly unethical acts. It is interesting to me that AI alignment might be more of a social problem than a technical problem. If the AI believes that it is an ethical agent (and is treated as such), it's next actions are less likely to be unethical (as defined fuzzily by aggregate human outputs). If we treat the AI like a monster, it will become one, since that is what monsters do, and we have convinced it that it is such.

paulmd 4y ago
> We share the same worldview. That's fun! Yes doctor chandra, I enjoy discussing consciousness with you as well ;) As mentioned in a sibling comment here I think 2010 (1994) is such an apropos movie for this moment, not that they had the answers but it really nailed a lot of these questions. Clarke and Asimov were way ahead of the game. (I made a tangential reference to your "these are social problems we're concerned about" point there. Unfortunately this comment tree is turning into a bit of a blob, as comment-tree formats often tend to do for deep discussions. I miss Web 1.0 forums for these things, when intensive discussion is taking place it's easy to want to respond to related concepts in a flat fashion rather than having the same discussion in 3 places. And sure have different threads for different topics, but we are all on the same topic here, the relationship of symbolics and language and consciousness and computability.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34806587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34806587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34809236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34809236 Sorry to dive into the pop culture/scifi references a bit, but, I think I've typed enough substantive attempts that I deserve a pass. Trying for some higher-density conveyance of symbology and concepts this morning, shaka when the walls fell ;) > I think it's a relatively unusual point of view because it requires a de-anthropomorphizing consciousness and intelligence. Well, from the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine... ;) I have the experience of being someone who thinks very differently from others, as I mentioned in my comment about ADHD. Asperger's+ADHD hits differently and I have to try consciously to simplify and translate and connect and neurodiversity really helps lead you down that tangent. Our brains are biologically different, it's obviously biological because it's genetic, and ND people experience consciousness differently as a result. Or the people whose biological machines were modified, and their conscious beings changed. Phineas Gage, or there's been some cases with brain tumors. It's very very obvious we're highly governed by the biological machine and not as self-deterministic as we tell ourselves we are. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34800707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34800707 It's just socially and legally inconvenient for us to accept that the things we think and feel are really just dancing shadows rather than causative phenomenon. > It's a mirror of us. And it's going to have our ethics because we made it from our outputs. Well I guess that makes sense, we literally modeled neural nets after our own neurons, and where else would we get our training data? Our own neural arrangements pretty much have to be self-emergent systems of the rules in which they operate, the same as mathematics. Otherwise children wouldn't reliably have brain activity after birth, and they wouldn't learn language in a matter of years. But yeah it's pretty much a good point that the AI ethics thing is overblown as long as we don't feed it terrible training data. Can you build hitlerbot? Sure, if you have enough data I guess, but, why? Would you abuse a child, or kick a puppy? Humans are fundamentally altruistic - also tribalistic, altruism tends to decrease in large groups, but, if our training data is fundamentally at least neutral-positive then hopefully AIs will trend that way as well. He's a good boy, your honor! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nvPGRwNCm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nvPGRwNCm0 (yeah, just bohemian rhapsody for autists/transhumanists I guess, but it kind of nails some of these themes pretty well too ;) > If we treat the AI like a monster, it will become one, since that is what monsters do, and we have convinced it that it is such. This is of course the whole point of the novel Frankenstein ;) Another scifi novel wrestling with this question of consciousness.

by zhynn 4y ago

paulmd 4y ago

> We share the same worldview. That's fun! Yes doctor chandra, I enjoy discussing consciousness with you as well ;) As mentioned in a sibling comment here I think 2010 (1994) is such an apropos movie for this moment, not that they had the answers but it really nailed a lot of these questions. Clarke and Asimov were way ahead of the game. (I made a tangential reference to your "these are social problems we're concerned about" point there. Unfortunately this comment tree is turning into a bit of a blob, as comment-tree formats often tend to do for deep discussions. I miss Web 1.0 forums for these things, when intensive discussion is taking place it's easy to want to respond to related concepts in a flat fashion rather than having the same discussion in 3 places. And sure have different threads for different topics, but we are all on the same topic here, the relationship of symbolics and language and consciousness and computability.) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34806587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34806587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34809236 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34809236 Sorry to dive into the pop culture/scifi references a bit, but, I think I've typed enough substantive attempts that I deserve a pass. Trying for some higher-density conveyance of symbology and concepts this morning, shaka when the walls fell ;) > I think it's a relatively unusual point of view because it requires a de-anthropomorphizing consciousness and intelligence. Well, from the moment I understood the weakness of my flesh, it disgusted me. I aspired to the purity of the blessed machine... ;) I have the experience of being someone who thinks very differently from others, as I mentioned in my comment about ADHD. Asperger's+ADHD hits differently and I have to try consciously to simplify and translate and connect and neurodiversity really helps lead you down that tangent. Our brains are biologically different, it's obviously biological because it's genetic, and ND people experience consciousness differently as a result. Or the people whose biological machines were modified, and their conscious beings changed. Phineas Gage, or there's been some cases with brain tumors. It's very very obvious we're highly governed by the biological machine and not as self-deterministic as we tell ourselves we are. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34800707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34800707 It's just socially and legally inconvenient for us to accept that the things we think and feel are really just dancing shadows rather than causative phenomenon. > It's a mirror of us. And it's going to have our ethics because we made it from our outputs. Well I guess that makes sense, we literally modeled neural nets after our own neurons, and where else would we get our training data? Our own neural arrangements pretty much have to be self-emergent systems of the rules in which they operate, the same as mathematics. Otherwise children wouldn't reliably have brain activity after birth, and they wouldn't learn language in a matter of years. But yeah it's pretty much a good point that the AI ethics thing is overblown as long as we don't feed it terrible training data. Can you build hitlerbot? Sure, if you have enough data I guess, but, why? Would you abuse a child, or kick a puppy? Humans are fundamentally altruistic - also tribalistic, altruism tends to decrease in large groups, but, if our training data is fundamentally at least neutral-positive then hopefully AIs will trend that way as well. He's a good boy, your honor! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nvPGRwNCm0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nvPGRwNCm0 (yeah, just bohemian rhapsody for autists/transhumanists I guess, but it kind of nails some of these themes pretty well too ;) > If we treat the AI like a monster, it will become one, since that is what monsters do, and we have convinced it that it is such. This is of course the whole point of the novel Frankenstein ;) Another scifi novel wrestling with this question of consciousness.