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The relationship some developers have with Apple should be a case-study with multiple PhD thesis in psychology. Not even in movies I've seen so many cases of c

The relationship some developers have with Apple should be a case-study with multiple PhD thesis in psychology. Not even in movies I've seen so many cases of children desperately chasing their emotionally unavailable parent. Apple is a trillion dollar company, it's the "parent" who sells you +$40 dongles for everything. "Hobbies" are only good if they make them money AND doesn't increase their risk or any liability. I've seen this developer-Apple dynamic at least since the late 90s. "Daddy Apple" was more available back then, but it's wasn't like it cater that much to the hobbyist-developer community ( unless we see the past with rose-colored glasses ). The App Store is a multi-billion dollar business, like a moderately high-end mall, there is no place for hobbies in that world. I hope for a time when developers understand this and stop feeding Apple execs for free. Ironically that would be the day Apple would be "nicer" to them.

phendrenad2 4y ago
> desperately chasing their emotionally unavailable parent God, could you be any more snide? Please keep your personal vendetta against <whatever MacOS user harmed you> off of HN.
- yamtaddle 4y ago
  I'll keep writing it until we get it: HN desperately needs blocklists.
voakbasda 4y ago
It’s not just Apple. The same dynamic plays out with most other hyped technologies. Apple’s fans may demonstrate this behavior most clearly, but cults of sycophants exist for many different companies: Microsoft, Tesla, Google, … this list never ends.
- PedroBatista 4y ago
  Agree, Apple is the poster child, Tesla a close second because it targets most of the same people and markets. I still remember when Satya Nadella went "all-in" with Linux and Open Source, the whole "running Linux on Windows", etc. Many people went nuts and in a matter of months Microsoft was the hot new "hip" company. Which anyone looking into Microsoft's business for 5min would laugh at all that non-sense. Just an example: MS makes around 2 billion dollars every year in software patents/royalties, and the list of Microsoft being Microsoft goes on. My point is: This behavior is something more to do with the people than the companies themselves, they mostly cater and exploit it.
  - criddell 4y ago
    There are some pretty good reasons for wanting big parts of the status quo to remain. I bet if you took a few minutes, you could think of a few of them and that might give you a better understanding of why some of your tech friends are worried about Apple being forced to change.
- rootusrootus 4y ago
  > Apple’s fans may demonstrate this behavior most clearly I think that changed years ago. The iPhone made Apple very mainstream, which dilutes the fanboy effect considerably. Tesla fans are much, much worse at this point. I say that as a two-time (and current) Tesla owner who is decidedly not a Tesla fanboy (and in fact going the opposite direction a little more every day). > this list never ends The list is different for everyone. Everyone thinks their own choices are the only rational ones.
- threeseed 4y ago
  > cults of sycophants I think people like yourself should be more thoughtful more about why these products are so popular. Instead of reducing these people who may simply like their products to being cult members who can't make educated, independent choices.
stakhanov 4y ago
I agree. The whole article left me feeling a resounding "well, duhhhhhh". The author has simply chosen one of the least hackable compute platforms for his hacking hobby and is then complaining about it (I mean "hacking" in the original sense, not implying anything about illegal activities). If he were a farmer writing angry blog posts about how VW has made it damned-near impossible to plough a field with a VW beetle, it wouldn't be any more absurd. The simple truth of the matter is that Linux and other open source OSes are the only compute platforms that can still meaningfully be thought of as providing "general purpose computing". ...maybe the JVM does, too, but that's more like a general purpose computing sandbox within appliances that's under heavy guard and for some reason tolerated by appliance makers.
- _trackno5 4y ago
  Why shouldn’t he complain about it though? If nobody complains there’s no chance things will change. Sure people could vote with their feet, but not everyone is willing to do that. They should still be allowed to ask for improvements.
  - PedroBatista 4y ago
    I agree he has the right to complain, I call Apple "bad names" most of the time I log into App Store Connect! But.. We also need to have some perspective. They will not change unless the incentive is there and even then they fight it with all their strengths ( ex: other payment services used to sell in-app stuff ) And frankly why are "we" so invested in changing Apple? They suck? they don't threat you well? Then fuck them.
  - stakhanov 4y ago
    But his unwillingness to vote with his feet is the actual message here. He's basically saying: Here are the horrible things that Apple is doing to me and yet I'm still giving them my money and investing myself in their developer ecosystem. That's how much I love them, for some reason that remains unstated in the article. That's what the parent commenter alluded to: There's some really weird psychology happening here, and that's the piece that's actually interesting.
gretch 4y ago
Do you realize how smug and condescending this comment is? As if everyone who happens to disagree with you is psychology broken and utterly stupid? Let me give you another perspective as an apple user - I don't think about Apple at all. I have a glass brick that sends 20 - 30 text message a day and a couple times I'll use GPS to go to a new restaurant. Sometimes I'll do crossword puzzles. This brick happens to do it best. I don't think about Apple.
bkdbkd 4y ago
Yes, Great analogy. Remember the 2017 "Apple Commits to Pro Users" exercise? They flew reporters out for a boondoggle, gave them a tour of 'secret labs. With fresh competitive hardware coming 'real soon now'. Just spin. https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/apple-says-it-is-completely-rethinking-the-mac-pro https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/apple-sa...
irrational 4y ago
I agree, but... in my experience Android and Android devices suck in comparison to iOS and iPhones. Why can't anyone else create a true competitor to iOS and iPhone that is as open as Android? Is it because of Apple patents? Is it because they assume that if a company as large as Google couldn't do it then nobody can do it? Is it just developers are such a small part of the general populace that there is no money in creating something that will most appeal to them? That is, apple devices already have the mindshare of people who have no interest in creating their own apps and Android already has the rest of the populace, who can't afford apple products, tied up? So, creating a phone that is open while being as nice as iOS/iPhone just isn't a profitable endeavor?
- JohnFen 4y ago
  > in my experience Android and Android devices suck in comparison to iOS and iPhones. I wonder how much of this is "the thing I'm used to is the best thing?" every time I hear this sort of comparison (regardless of which type of machine the commenter thinks is "best".) The thing that makes me wonder is because my experience is the opposite of yours -- I think Android is much superior to iOS. But I suspect much of my opinion is because I'm much more used to Android than iOS.
  - gretch 4y ago
    It’s because needs and preferences differ. There is not 1 objective evaluation that makes it the “best”. Consider a minivan and a sports convertible on which car is the best car - many people will say my car is better and are optimizing for their own personal interests
- rchaud 4y ago
  > Why can't anyone else create a true competitor to iOS and iPhone that is as open as Android? Nokia tried in 2009/10 with the N900 running a Linux-based OS. It flopped, partially because Nokia was about to jettison their entire software stack to shack up with Windows Phone OS. But also partially because it came way too early, at a time when Apple and Google were spending millions to tell consumers that smartphones without app stores were useless and dangerous.
jb1991 4y ago
It would be easier for me to leave Apple if only their hardware wasn't so damn nice. I am so spoiled by these M1 (and now M2) Airs, they are the best machine I've ever bought and I've had quite a few! They do make incredible hardware, even if the dongles can be expensive, unfortunately.

phendrenad2 4y ago

> desperately chasing their emotionally unavailable parent God, could you be any more snide? Please keep your personal vendetta against <whatever MacOS user harmed you> off of HN.

yamtaddle 4y ago
I'll keep writing it until we get it: HN desperately needs blocklists.

voakbasda 4y ago

It’s not just Apple. The same dynamic plays out with most other hyped technologies. Apple’s fans may demonstrate this behavior most clearly, but cults of sycophants exist for many different companies: Microsoft, Tesla, Google, … this list never ends.

PedroBatista 4y ago
Agree, Apple is the poster child, Tesla a close second because it targets most of the same people and markets. I still remember when Satya Nadella went "all-in" with Linux and Open Source, the whole "running Linux on Windows", etc. Many people went nuts and in a matter of months Microsoft was the hot new "hip" company. Which anyone looking into Microsoft's business for 5min would laugh at all that non-sense. Just an example: MS makes around 2 billion dollars every year in software patents/royalties, and the list of Microsoft being Microsoft goes on. My point is: This behavior is something more to do with the people than the companies themselves, they mostly cater and exploit it.
- criddell 4y ago
  There are some pretty good reasons for wanting big parts of the status quo to remain. I bet if you took a few minutes, you could think of a few of them and that might give you a better understanding of why some of your tech friends are worried about Apple being forced to change.
rootusrootus 4y ago
> Apple’s fans may demonstrate this behavior most clearly I think that changed years ago. The iPhone made Apple very mainstream, which dilutes the fanboy effect considerably. Tesla fans are much, much worse at this point. I say that as a two-time (and current) Tesla owner who is decidedly not a Tesla fanboy (and in fact going the opposite direction a little more every day). > this list never ends The list is different for everyone. Everyone thinks their own choices are the only rational ones.
threeseed 4y ago
> cults of sycophants I think people like yourself should be more thoughtful more about why these products are so popular. Instead of reducing these people who may simply like their products to being cult members who can't make educated, independent choices.

stakhanov 4y ago

I agree. The whole article left me feeling a resounding "well, duhhhhhh". The author has simply chosen one of the least hackable compute platforms for his hacking hobby and is then complaining about it (I mean "hacking" in the original sense, not implying anything about illegal activities). If he were a farmer writing angry blog posts about how VW has made it damned-near impossible to plough a field with a VW beetle, it wouldn't be any more absurd. The simple truth of the matter is that Linux and other open source OSes are the only compute platforms that can still meaningfully be thought of as providing "general purpose computing". ...maybe the JVM does, too, but that's more like a general purpose computing sandbox within appliances that's under heavy guard and for some reason tolerated by appliance makers.

_trackno5 4y ago
Why shouldn’t he complain about it though? If nobody complains there’s no chance things will change. Sure people could vote with their feet, but not everyone is willing to do that. They should still be allowed to ask for improvements.
- PedroBatista 4y ago
  I agree he has the right to complain, I call Apple "bad names" most of the time I log into App Store Connect! But.. We also need to have some perspective. They will not change unless the incentive is there and even then they fight it with all their strengths ( ex: other payment services used to sell in-app stuff ) And frankly why are "we" so invested in changing Apple? They suck? they don't threat you well? Then fuck them.
- stakhanov 4y ago
  But his unwillingness to vote with his feet is the actual message here. He's basically saying: Here are the horrible things that Apple is doing to me and yet I'm still giving them my money and investing myself in their developer ecosystem. That's how much I love them, for some reason that remains unstated in the article. That's what the parent commenter alluded to: There's some really weird psychology happening here, and that's the piece that's actually interesting.

gretch 4y ago

Do you realize how smug and condescending this comment is? As if everyone who happens to disagree with you is psychology broken and utterly stupid? Let me give you another perspective as an apple user - I don't think about Apple at all. I have a glass brick that sends 20 - 30 text message a day and a couple times I'll use GPS to go to a new restaurant. Sometimes I'll do crossword puzzles. This brick happens to do it best. I don't think about Apple.

bkdbkd 4y ago

Yes, Great analogy. Remember the 2017 "Apple Commits to Pro Users" exercise? They flew reporters out for a boondoggle, gave them a tour of 'secret labs. With fresh competitive hardware coming 'real soon now'. Just spin. https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives https://daringfireball.net/2017/04/the_mac_pro_lives https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/apple-says-it-is-completely-rethinking-the-mac-pro https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/johnpaczkowski/apple-sa...

irrational 4y ago

I agree, but... in my experience Android and Android devices suck in comparison to iOS and iPhones. Why can't anyone else create a true competitor to iOS and iPhone that is as open as Android? Is it because of Apple patents? Is it because they assume that if a company as large as Google couldn't do it then nobody can do it? Is it just developers are such a small part of the general populace that there is no money in creating something that will most appeal to them? That is, apple devices already have the mindshare of people who have no interest in creating their own apps and Android already has the rest of the populace, who can't afford apple products, tied up? So, creating a phone that is open while being as nice as iOS/iPhone just isn't a profitable endeavor?

JohnFen 4y ago
> in my experience Android and Android devices suck in comparison to iOS and iPhones. I wonder how much of this is "the thing I'm used to is the best thing?" every time I hear this sort of comparison (regardless of which type of machine the commenter thinks is "best".) The thing that makes me wonder is because my experience is the opposite of yours -- I think Android is much superior to iOS. But I suspect much of my opinion is because I'm much more used to Android than iOS.
- gretch 4y ago
  It’s because needs and preferences differ. There is not 1 objective evaluation that makes it the “best”. Consider a minivan and a sports convertible on which car is the best car - many people will say my car is better and are optimizing for their own personal interests
rchaud 4y ago
> Why can't anyone else create a true competitor to iOS and iPhone that is as open as Android? Nokia tried in 2009/10 with the N900 running a Linux-based OS. It flopped, partially because Nokia was about to jettison their entire software stack to shack up with Windows Phone OS. But also partially because it came way too early, at a time when Apple and Google were spending millions to tell consumers that smartphones without app stores were useless and dangerous.

jb1991 4y ago

It would be easier for me to leave Apple if only their hardware wasn't so damn nice. I am so spoiled by these M1 (and now M2) Airs, they are the best machine I've ever bought and I've had quite a few! They do make incredible hardware, even if the dongles can be expensive, unfortunately.