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The final NEVI charger rules are available here: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/nevi/resources/ev_charging_min_std_rule_fr.pdf https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/en

The final NEVI charger rules are available here: https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/nevi/resources/ev_charging_min_std_rule_fr.pdf https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/nevi/resources/ev_charg... Among other things, it requires 97% uptime, CCS connectors, 150 kW minimum for every plug (power sharing allowed for capacity above that), payment via contactless credit/debit payment and either toll free phone number or SMS short code, must have a customer service system to report charger outages.

bryanlarsen 4y ago
Does this mean that non-Tesla drivers won't have to install the Tesla app to use the new Tesla chargers? If so, this is even bigger news.
- mlindner 4y ago
  There's nothing that says you won't also need a phone app just that you can't mandate payment through the phone app. It just says that there's no membership requirement and downloading an app is not a membership. BTW, Tesla has already created the technology they'll use for charging. It's called "Magic Dock" which is believed to a system where through the phone app you either unlock a connector that has CCS on the end of it, or you unlock the inner Tesla connector. By default it's the Tesla connector and you use the Tesla app to tell it that a non-Tesla car has arrived. Here's some industry speculation: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/here-s-how-tesla-s-magic-dock-intelligent-ccs-adapter-might-work-in-real-world-210270.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/here-s-how-tesla-s-magic-...
mlindner 4y ago
I believe the CCS connector rule will eventually be changed. The momentum Tesla has with their own connector is simply too great. Keep in mind for European posters: this is not the European CCS. It's CCS type 1, which is quite a lot worse than CCS type 2 in Europe.
- hedora 4y ago
  Tesla’s market share is plummeting. They were at > 75% a year or so ago. Market consensus has them at 11% by end of 2024. Also, dongles to plug Teslas into CCS exist, and come with new Teslas, so there is no reason to build any more Tesla-only charging station wires.
  - mlindner 4y ago
    Tesla vehicle production continues to grow at a very high rate however. Being over 75% of a market is ridiculous. That's kind of expected. Tesla has said many times they're not competing with EV companies, they're competing with all vehicle production. Also are you measuring vehicle sales or vehicle ownership? Anything over 50% production and Tesla vehicle ownership percentage continues to grow versus any other vehicle, EV or otherwise. > Market consensus has them at 11% by end of 2024. I laughed when I saw that number. Who is claiming that? Because that's certainly not consensus. I can only find things from mid-2022 and that predates Tesla's price drop.
    - hedora 4y ago
      By sales. Merrill Lynch published the report I am thinking of. They dropped from > 70 to 63 last year, and missed sales estimates for Q4. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-share-ev-market-dropping-211500950.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-share-ev-market-droppin... Also, their competition is ridiculously strong. Want a luxury EV with a nice interior? There are many options, and most have physical controls and a touch screen. Want a truck? Cybertruck will likely be fifth to market. Van or off road vehicle? You aren’t getting a tesla. Want hands free self driving on the freeway? Wait 18 months for a GMC. (Cruise is getting 10,000x more miles per disengagement than Tesla). Inexpensive long range vehicle? Chevy Bolt. Ecobox? Leaf, used volt, or similar. It doesn’t really matter if they are targeting the whole market if they can’t hold a big percentage of their niche. It is unclear if they can even dominate midrange or luxury sedans at this point.
      - vel0city 4y ago
hedora 4y ago
Does the 97% uptime rule also apply to contactless payments? If so, that’s huge. (EVgo stations around here have 99% uptime on the charger, and under 50% on non-app payments.)
sokoloff 4y ago
150 kW minimum simultaneously across all DCFCs is likely to have an unintended side-effect of limiting the number of DCFCs offered. Which would you rather have, 150kW max per port, 300kW max total and 6 DCFCs or the same power limit and only 2 DCFCs?
- ajross 4y ago
  That's surely a grandfather rule designed to permit older units to qualify. In point of fact all the Tesla stations under discussion are v3 250 kW chargers providing full power to every port.
darkwater 4y ago
wow! I hope Europe does something like this like... now, especially the enforced credit card contactless payment option. It just sucks so hard right now that it's my biggesest complaint against EVs right now.
- gruturo 4y ago
  Seconding this. Recently took a few long-ish trips in the EU, non-Tesla chargers are utter garbage. None of them just accept a credit/debit (EC) card, there are 20 different networks and you need to create an account with each of them, assuming of course their signup system isn't down today, or just the entire network. Having to randomly re-log because they kick you out of the app when they encounter any unexpected server reply or timeout, etc. And this is just the app+payment garbage. The charger themselves.... 30% of them don't work, 10% don't exist at all, 10% are inaccessible (inside a private garage, inside private premises, etc), the rest are understandably crowded and you end up waiting a lot. The Aldi and Lidl (supermarket chains) chargers are actually the least bad, and once they stopped being free the crazy overcrowding also stopped. I just avoid all others at this point.
  - darkwater 4y ago
    Just 20 networks? :D And then you have the apps that let you use more networks at once that overcharge you an abusive surplus (Bonnet being the only exception I'm aware of)
  - vel0city 4y ago
    > None of them just accept a credit/debit (EC) card So, do Tesla chargers in Europe have a card reader on them? Or do they also not "just accept a credit/debit (EC) card"? Could someone just go to a Tesla charger without having any kind of Tesla account and start charging? Sounds like Tesla is a lot like those other charging networks, huh.
  - kybernetikos 4y ago
    Just used a bunch of non-tesla fast chargers in the Netherlands. Multiple fast chargers along all major routes, never had to wait for a charger (the Netherlands has incredibly high number of chargers per sq mile, and we drove past a bunch being built too), all the chargers we used were tap with credit/debit card to pay. They had solar canopies, 100% green energy and were clear and straightforward to use, with a cord system that could go over the car if you were parked on the wrong side. In fact, the only negative part of the experience was the fact that often the facilities around them were sparse, so it was a pleasant 20 minute walk in the woods rather than the fast food we'd been expecting to get. It's definitely not like that everywhere in Europe, but there are countries that seem to be getting it right.

bryanlarsen 4y ago

Does this mean that non-Tesla drivers won't have to install the Tesla app to use the new Tesla chargers? If so, this is even bigger news.

mlindner 4y ago
There's nothing that says you won't also need a phone app just that you can't mandate payment through the phone app. It just says that there's no membership requirement and downloading an app is not a membership. BTW, Tesla has already created the technology they'll use for charging. It's called "Magic Dock" which is believed to a system where through the phone app you either unlock a connector that has CCS on the end of it, or you unlock the inner Tesla connector. By default it's the Tesla connector and you use the Tesla app to tell it that a non-Tesla car has arrived. Here's some industry speculation: https://www.autoevolution.com/news/here-s-how-tesla-s-magic-dock-intelligent-ccs-adapter-might-work-in-real-world-210270.html https://www.autoevolution.com/news/here-s-how-tesla-s-magic-...

mlindner 4y ago

I believe the CCS connector rule will eventually be changed. The momentum Tesla has with their own connector is simply too great. Keep in mind for European posters: this is not the European CCS. It's CCS type 1, which is quite a lot worse than CCS type 2 in Europe.

hedora 4y ago
Tesla’s market share is plummeting. They were at > 75% a year or so ago. Market consensus has them at 11% by end of 2024. Also, dongles to plug Teslas into CCS exist, and come with new Teslas, so there is no reason to build any more Tesla-only charging station wires.
- mlindner 4y ago
  Tesla vehicle production continues to grow at a very high rate however. Being over 75% of a market is ridiculous. That's kind of expected. Tesla has said many times they're not competing with EV companies, they're competing with all vehicle production. Also are you measuring vehicle sales or vehicle ownership? Anything over 50% production and Tesla vehicle ownership percentage continues to grow versus any other vehicle, EV or otherwise. > Market consensus has them at 11% by end of 2024. I laughed when I saw that number. Who is claiming that? Because that's certainly not consensus. I can only find things from mid-2022 and that predates Tesla's price drop.
  - hedora 4y ago
    By sales. Merrill Lynch published the report I am thinking of. They dropped from > 70 to 63 last year, and missed sales estimates for Q4. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-share-ev-market-dropping-211500950.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-share-ev-market-droppin... Also, their competition is ridiculously strong. Want a luxury EV with a nice interior? There are many options, and most have physical controls and a touch screen. Want a truck? Cybertruck will likely be fifth to market. Van or off road vehicle? You aren’t getting a tesla. Want hands free self driving on the freeway? Wait 18 months for a GMC. (Cruise is getting 10,000x more miles per disengagement than Tesla). Inexpensive long range vehicle? Chevy Bolt. Ecobox? Leaf, used volt, or similar. It doesn’t really matter if they are targeting the whole market if they can’t hold a big percentage of their niche. It is unclear if they can even dominate midrange or luxury sedans at this point.
    - vel0city 4y ago

hedora 4y ago

Does the 97% uptime rule also apply to contactless payments? If so, that’s huge. (EVgo stations around here have 99% uptime on the charger, and under 50% on non-app payments.)

sokoloff 4y ago

150 kW minimum simultaneously across all DCFCs is likely to have an unintended side-effect of limiting the number of DCFCs offered. Which would you rather have, 150kW max per port, 300kW max total and 6 DCFCs or the same power limit and only 2 DCFCs?

ajross 4y ago
That's surely a grandfather rule designed to permit older units to qualify. In point of fact all the Tesla stations under discussion are v3 250 kW chargers providing full power to every port.

darkwater 4y ago

wow! I hope Europe does something like this like... now, especially the enforced credit card contactless payment option. It just sucks so hard right now that it's my biggesest complaint against EVs right now.

gruturo 4y ago
Seconding this. Recently took a few long-ish trips in the EU, non-Tesla chargers are utter garbage. None of them just accept a credit/debit (EC) card, there are 20 different networks and you need to create an account with each of them, assuming of course their signup system isn't down today, or just the entire network. Having to randomly re-log because they kick you out of the app when they encounter any unexpected server reply or timeout, etc. And this is just the app+payment garbage. The charger themselves.... 30% of them don't work, 10% don't exist at all, 10% are inaccessible (inside a private garage, inside private premises, etc), the rest are understandably crowded and you end up waiting a lot. The Aldi and Lidl (supermarket chains) chargers are actually the least bad, and once they stopped being free the crazy overcrowding also stopped. I just avoid all others at this point.
- darkwater 4y ago
  Just 20 networks? :D And then you have the apps that let you use more networks at once that overcharge you an abusive surplus (Bonnet being the only exception I'm aware of)
- vel0city 4y ago
  > None of them just accept a credit/debit (EC) card So, do Tesla chargers in Europe have a card reader on them? Or do they also not "just accept a credit/debit (EC) card"? Could someone just go to a Tesla charger without having any kind of Tesla account and start charging? Sounds like Tesla is a lot like those other charging networks, huh.
- kybernetikos 4y ago
  Just used a bunch of non-tesla fast chargers in the Netherlands. Multiple fast chargers along all major routes, never had to wait for a charger (the Netherlands has incredibly high number of chargers per sq mile, and we drove past a bunch being built too), all the chargers we used were tap with credit/debit card to pay. They had solar canopies, 100% green energy and were clear and straightforward to use, with a cord system that could go over the car if you were parked on the wrong side. In fact, the only negative part of the experience was the fact that often the facilities around them were sparse, so it was a pleasant 20 minute walk in the woods rather than the fast food we'd been expecting to get. It's definitely not like that everywhere in Europe, but there are countries that seem to be getting it right.