5 ms·

Zoroastrianism is very confusing. As is Hinduism. Getting to the central tenants is rough.

adictator 4y ago
[dead]
yazaddaruvala 4y ago
Was brought up Zoroastrian. AMA Some central tenets: - Good thoughts lead to good words lead to good deeds. - Life shouldn’t be a zero sum game. Therefore don’t loot and pillage, don’t tolerate looting and pillaging, no more sacrificing animals or people, instead grow food and grow populations. - The representation of god cannot be known, and best showcased through fire (or energy). I’d bet a lot of money that a Tesla Coil would also be an acceptable representation. - Otherwise, think critically and question intention and motivation of yourself and others to ensure it’s “towards god rather than towards the devil”.
- 082349872349872 4y ago
  Does Herodotus' characterisation sound rooted in Zoroastrianism? > παιδεύουσι δὲ τοὺς παῖδας ἀπὸ πενταέτεος ἀρξάμενοι μέχρι εἰκοσαέτεος τρία μοῦνα, ἰχνεύειν καὶ τοξεύειν καὶ ἀληθίζεσθαι. [The Persians] educate their boys from five to twenty years old, and teach them only three things: riding and archery and honesty (iow "sit straight, shoot straight, and speak straight") NB. https://lsj.gr/wiki/ἰχνεύω https://lsj.gr/wiki/ἰχνεύω suggests possible issues with the received (1920) english translation above, but I'd easily believe hunting (as to hounds) to imply riding.
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    > Does Herodotus' characterisation sound rooted in Zoroastrianism? My assumptions: The Zoroastrian Persians of that time were "Zoroastrian" like today's Christian Americans are "Christian". > educate their boys from five to twenty years old, Based on how me, my family, and friends were all raised, yes education is paramount. It falls into "make life a positive sum game" or "grow". That seems fundamentally Zoroastrian. The exclusion of women strikes me as anti-Zoroastrian. Maybe this is a more modern ethos even for Zoroastrians. Every Zoroastrian, regardless of sex/gender, that I know is educated at least till 20, and past that if they desire it/finances accamodate). > and teach them only three things: riding and archery and honesty Making it exclusive to riding, archery and honesty seems non-Zoroastrian. Likely just pragmatic for their army or something. Even that seems off to me - they had farmers and mathematicians and engineers, etc. If I were guessing this is selection bias from likely his Greek roots, the ongoing wars, and living in a smaller city (I assume closer to the borders of the empire). The honesty does resonate, but its likely an incomplete translation. I'd assume they actually meant "noble"[0], which would be rooted Zoroastrianism. Where specifically they taught honesty as important, but caveated with pragmatism to withheld to ensure "high moral outcomes". "High moral outcomes" is very rooted in Zoroastrianism. [0] having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals.
- anthk 4y ago
  That's sound close to praising agriculture against hoarding/recollecting. Cain vs Abel. In the end Abrahamic religions are cults which make the sow and harvesting times sacred and "humanized". It's not a coincidence. The Holy week with Jesus' death and resurrection and harvesting times are the same. So, all Christians, Muslims and Jews are secretly celebrating... the Neolithic revolution.
  - zdragnar 4y ago
    It sounds close to it only if you read it overly literally. A more appropriate interpretation is "do not do things which take from others. do things which add to the world" where stealing and looting and sacrifices take away from others / the world, and growing, building and bearing children are adding new to the world.
- falaki 4y ago
  @yazaddaruvala are you following the Indian branch of Zoroastrianism or the Iranian? How different are the traditions?
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    I was born in India and that Indo-Persian (Parsi) culture is what helped raise me. My understanding is Iranian Zoroastrians and Indian Zoroastrians have very different traditions. Many in common but many that are an inherited from their 1000 years apart. Specifically, Zoroastrians (both Indian and Iranian) have a few annual traditions (https://theguibordcenter.org/zoroastrian-holy-days-and-observances/ https://theguibordcenter.org/zoroastrian-holy-days-and-obser...), and like 4 life-milestone traditions (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navjote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navjote, Wedding, Death, etc). I believe all of these are very similar. There are many differences tho, mostly based on "sibling-culture". For example, my cousin recently had a wedding (to another Indian Zoroastrian) and there were a lot of Indian traditions included (Iranians would not do these). Indian Zoroastrians celebrate a lot of Indian Hindu traditions (e.g. Holy, Diwali, etc) and similarly I'm sure (I don't know for fact) Iranian Zoroastrians celebrate a lot of Iranian Muslim traditions (e.g. Eid). Even the choice of clothing is more inspired by their surroundings than their religion. However, the do share a common tradition of wearing particular undergarments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedreh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedreh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushti). Food again has a similar story. Mostly from their surroundings, but some commonality. e.g. Parsi's use a lot of spices in their cooking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi_cuisine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi_cuisine). But the dessets are typically more middle-eastern ("Common desserts include sev (vermicelli), ravo (sweet semolina pudding) and malido (a nutty fudge). Also popular are faluda and kulfi, both of which are adoptions from the cuisines of the Irani and Persian-speaking communities.") You'd find it quite difficult to find http://www.nilouferskitchen.com/2014/12/parsi-sev.html http://www.nilouferskitchen.com/2014/12/parsi-sev.html or anything similar in any Indian dessert shop, but as per my understanding shares a lot in common with "Halawat Sha'riyya" or "Sh'ariyeh be-sukkar". There is a Parsi breakfast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akuri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akuri that shares a lot in common with Menemen (Turkey) or scrambled Shakshuka. Akuri differs because it is also Indian and meant to be heavily spiced, and many times meant to be spicy. If any of you ever are in London try out https://www.dishoom.com/food-drink/ https://www.dishoom.com/food-drink/ their Akuri is NOT on point lol - its adapted for a British pallet -, but if you add a bunch of Salt and Chillies (they provide them on request) then it becomes very representative. The Keema Per Eedu is on point tho! and mixing some of that spicy sauce into their "Akuri" will also work to make representative Akuri.
- snapcaster 4y ago
  These actually sound pretty solid, but I wonder if "Life shouldn't be a zero sum game" is an anti-competitive meme that it isn't safe for religions to adopt if they want to last or spread. Hopefully not :)
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    > "Life shouldn't be a zero sum game" is an anti-competitive meme Disclaimer: I'm defining "anti-competitive meme" as some idea that is vulnerable to The Prisoner's Dilemma (aka. tragedy of the commons, or "why we can't have nice things"). It is! No different than "peace" is an anti-competitive meme, or "turn the other cheek" or "do not follow eye-for-an-eye" are all anti-competitive memes. Arguably the goal of religion is to use the supernatural to keep anti-competitive memes prioritized within society.
- leobg 4y ago
  Any good books you can recommend in connection with this way of life? Fiction, nonfiction, biographies. Anything that, in your view, reflects that spirit, or has a chance to give the reader an experience of it. (Am primarily interested because I like Nietzsche’s Thus Spoke Zarathustra, which does borrow at least the name.)
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    Sorry, I'm not too much of a reader myself. I also am not constantly thinking in terms of flagging content as "Zoroastrian or not" so its hard to recall in this moment. I'd say in terms of short stories read "The Last Question - Asimov" its very helpful to my understanding of Zoroastrianism. I also struggle to suggest anything. Most of these things would be very much my interpretations of the art in too nuanced a way to evoke the same connections for others. e.g. I found the most recent Marvel's Eternals film to have a lot of Zoroastrian reflections within them (like around God's creation of and struggle against the Devil). In Eternals (spoiler alert) is it better to sacrifice the Earth to create a net-positive Reverse Entropy Machine or better to keep the Earth? It is a serious struggle to weigh those outcomes and try to know which outcome is "more Zoroastrian" and "aligned with God vs the Devil". My dad actually wrote a book about "Zarathustra in a Space Age" (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1980264627 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1980264627). I hesitate to share, I haven't read this book - yet - I suppose I'm a not so great son. I also hesitate to share because as I understand it there are a lot of "hot takes" - my grandma who is more orthodox would disagree some of these ideas are Zoroastrian.
    - leobg 4y ago
      Thanks. I’ll check out the two you mentioned. And no worries. I know it was kind of an odd question.
- datavirtue 4y ago
  There are some scholars who try to tie the emergence of agriculture to Zoroastrianism.

[dead]

Was brought up Zoroastrian. AMA Some central tenets: - Good thoughts lead to good words lead to good deeds. - Life shouldn’t be a zero sum game. Therefore don’t loot and pillage, don’t tolerate looting and pillaging, no more sacrificing animals or people, instead grow food and grow populations. - The representation of god cannot be known, and best showcased through fire (or energy). I’d bet a lot of money that a Tesla Coil would also be an acceptable representation. - Otherwise, think critically and question intention and motivation of yourself and others to ensure it’s “towards god rather than towards the devil”.

082349872349872 4y ago
Does Herodotus' characterisation sound rooted in Zoroastrianism? > παιδεύουσι δὲ τοὺς παῖδας ἀπὸ πενταέτεος ἀρξάμενοι μέχρι εἰκοσαέτεος τρία μοῦνα, ἰχνεύειν καὶ τοξεύειν καὶ ἀληθίζεσθαι. [The Persians] educate their boys from five to twenty years old, and teach them only three things: riding and archery and honesty (iow "sit straight, shoot straight, and speak straight") NB. https://lsj.gr/wiki/ἰχνεύω https://lsj.gr/wiki/ἰχνεύω suggests possible issues with the received (1920) english translation above, but I'd easily believe hunting (as to hounds) to imply riding.
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  > Does Herodotus' characterisation sound rooted in Zoroastrianism? My assumptions: The Zoroastrian Persians of that time were "Zoroastrian" like today's Christian Americans are "Christian". > educate their boys from five to twenty years old, Based on how me, my family, and friends were all raised, yes education is paramount. It falls into "make life a positive sum game" or "grow". That seems fundamentally Zoroastrian. The exclusion of women strikes me as anti-Zoroastrian. Maybe this is a more modern ethos even for Zoroastrians. Every Zoroastrian, regardless of sex/gender, that I know is educated at least till 20, and past that if they desire it/finances accamodate). > and teach them only three things: riding and archery and honesty Making it exclusive to riding, archery and honesty seems non-Zoroastrian. Likely just pragmatic for their army or something. Even that seems off to me - they had farmers and mathematicians and engineers, etc. If I were guessing this is selection bias from likely his Greek roots, the ongoing wars, and living in a smaller city (I assume closer to the borders of the empire). The honesty does resonate, but its likely an incomplete translation. I'd assume they actually meant "noble"[0], which would be rooted Zoroastrianism. Where specifically they taught honesty as important, but caveated with pragmatism to withheld to ensure "high moral outcomes". "High moral outcomes" is very rooted in Zoroastrianism. [0] having or showing fine personal qualities or high moral principles and ideals.
anthk 4y ago
That's sound close to praising agriculture against hoarding/recollecting. Cain vs Abel. In the end Abrahamic religions are cults which make the sow and harvesting times sacred and "humanized". It's not a coincidence. The Holy week with Jesus' death and resurrection and harvesting times are the same. So, all Christians, Muslims and Jews are secretly celebrating... the Neolithic revolution.
- zdragnar 4y ago
  It sounds close to it only if you read it overly literally. A more appropriate interpretation is "do not do things which take from others. do things which add to the world" where stealing and looting and sacrifices take away from others / the world, and growing, building and bearing children are adding new to the world.
falaki 4y ago
@yazaddaruvala are you following the Indian branch of Zoroastrianism or the Iranian? How different are the traditions?
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  I was born in India and that Indo-Persian (Parsi) culture is what helped raise me. My understanding is Iranian Zoroastrians and Indian Zoroastrians have very different traditions. Many in common but many that are an inherited from their 1000 years apart. Specifically, Zoroastrians (both Indian and Iranian) have a few annual traditions (https://theguibordcenter.org/zoroastrian-holy-days-and-observances/ https://theguibordcenter.org/zoroastrian-holy-days-and-obser...), and like 4 life-milestone traditions (e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navjote https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navjote, Wedding, Death, etc). I believe all of these are very similar. There are many differences tho, mostly based on "sibling-culture". For example, my cousin recently had a wedding (to another Indian Zoroastrian) and there were a lot of Indian traditions included (Iranians would not do these). Indian Zoroastrians celebrate a lot of Indian Hindu traditions (e.g. Holy, Diwali, etc) and similarly I'm sure (I don't know for fact) Iranian Zoroastrians celebrate a lot of Iranian Muslim traditions (e.g. Eid). Even the choice of clothing is more inspired by their surroundings than their religion. However, the do share a common tradition of wearing particular undergarments (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedreh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedreh, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kushti). Food again has a similar story. Mostly from their surroundings, but some commonality. e.g. Parsi's use a lot of spices in their cooking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi_cuisine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parsi_cuisine). But the dessets are typically more middle-eastern ("Common desserts include sev (vermicelli), ravo (sweet semolina pudding) and malido (a nutty fudge). Also popular are faluda and kulfi, both of which are adoptions from the cuisines of the Irani and Persian-speaking communities.") You'd find it quite difficult to find http://www.nilouferskitchen.com/2014/12/parsi-sev.html http://www.nilouferskitchen.com/2014/12/parsi-sev.html or anything similar in any Indian dessert shop, but as per my understanding shares a lot in common with "Halawat Sha'riyya" or "Sh'ariyeh be-sukkar". There is a Parsi breakfast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akuri https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akuri that shares a lot in common with Menemen (Turkey) or scrambled Shakshuka. Akuri differs because it is also Indian and meant to be heavily spiced, and many times meant to be spicy. If any of you ever are in London try out https://www.dishoom.com/food-drink/ https://www.dishoom.com/food-drink/ their Akuri is NOT on point lol - its adapted for a British pallet -, but if you add a bunch of Salt and Chillies (they provide them on request) then it becomes very representative. The Keema Per Eedu is on point tho! and mixing some of that spicy sauce into their "Akuri" will also work to make representative Akuri.
snapcaster 4y ago
These actually sound pretty solid, but I wonder if "Life shouldn't be a zero sum game" is an anti-competitive meme that it isn't safe for religions to adopt if they want to last or spread. Hopefully not :)
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  > "Life shouldn't be a zero sum game" is an anti-competitive meme Disclaimer: I'm defining "anti-competitive meme" as some idea that is vulnerable to The Prisoner's Dilemma (aka. tragedy of the commons, or "why we can't have nice things"). It is! No different than "peace" is an anti-competitive meme, or "turn the other cheek" or "do not follow eye-for-an-eye" are all anti-competitive memes. Arguably the goal of religion is to use the supernatural to keep anti-competitive memes prioritized within society.
leobg 4y ago
Any good books you can recommend in connection with this way of life? Fiction, nonfiction, biographies. Anything that, in your view, reflects that spirit, or has a chance to give the reader an experience of it. (Am primarily interested because I like Nietzsche’s Thus Spoke Zarathustra, which does borrow at least the name.)
- yazaddaruvala 4y ago
  Sorry, I'm not too much of a reader myself. I also am not constantly thinking in terms of flagging content as "Zoroastrian or not" so its hard to recall in this moment. I'd say in terms of short stories read "The Last Question - Asimov" its very helpful to my understanding of Zoroastrianism. I also struggle to suggest anything. Most of these things would be very much my interpretations of the art in too nuanced a way to evoke the same connections for others. e.g. I found the most recent Marvel's Eternals film to have a lot of Zoroastrian reflections within them (like around God's creation of and struggle against the Devil). In Eternals (spoiler alert) is it better to sacrifice the Earth to create a net-positive Reverse Entropy Machine or better to keep the Earth? It is a serious struggle to weigh those outcomes and try to know which outcome is "more Zoroastrian" and "aligned with God vs the Devil". My dad actually wrote a book about "Zarathustra in a Space Age" (https://www.amazon.com/dp/1980264627 https://www.amazon.com/dp/1980264627). I hesitate to share, I haven't read this book - yet - I suppose I'm a not so great son. I also hesitate to share because as I understand it there are a lot of "hot takes" - my grandma who is more orthodox would disagree some of these ideas are Zoroastrian.
  - leobg 4y ago
    Thanks. I’ll check out the two you mentioned. And no worries. I know it was kind of an odd question.
datavirtue 4y ago
There are some scholars who try to tie the emergence of agriculture to Zoroastrianism.