21 ms·

I've been staunchly on the Android side of the Android / iOS question, but this carry-on with refusing to block tracking like Apple has done is really making me

by shmapf 4y ago

I've been staunchly on the Android side of the Android / iOS question, but this carry-on with refusing to block tracking like Apple has done is really making me consider switching.

kube-system 4y ago
Waiting for Google to protect your privacy is like waiting on a billboard company to improve the natural beauty of the roadside landscape.
- 0xfaded 4y ago
  I already have a second hand iphone for iMessage. Having a "sanctioned" device for baking apps and a device I control for everything else seems like the best hope for compromise these days.
jqpabc123 4y ago
No need to pay double or triple for hardware. There are lots of privacy focused alternatives that are Android based. Personally, I like e/OS: https://e.foundation/ https://e.foundation/ You can buy a ready to use phone on their web site or you can install the OS on a compatible phone of your own. I have installed this on about 10 phones (all Motorola) for friends and family. Here is an example of one that I just put together as a Christmas present. https://www.amazon.com/Motorola-T-Mobile-Unlocked-XT2113-2-Smartphone/dp/B09DTHD61W/ref=sr_1_6 https://www.amazon.com/Motorola-T-Mobile-Unlocked-XT2113-2-S... As a de-Googled phone, the Google Play store doesn't work but that's no big loss because I can get any software I need from F-Droid and Aurora Store. https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.aurora.store/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.aurora.store/
- 2-718-281-828 4y ago
  where did this come from all of a sudden? I thought I knew all the Android alternatives. why does this super polished website for this out of nowhere suddenly maintained technology give me strong [intelligence agency of your choice] vibes?
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    This has been out there for years --- since 2018. And check your vibe meter, it is acting up. The main person behind this was the creator of Mandrake Linux. https://itsfoss.com/e-os-review/ https://itsfoss.com/e-os-review/
    - 2-718-281-828 4y ago
      you're right ... I must have confused something. will check it out
- toastal 4y ago
  Can any of these privacy-oriented forks support a device from within the last two years with a headphone jack?
  - nix23 4y ago
    I have the fairphone 4 with divestOS: https://shop.fairphone.com/ https://shop.fairphone.com/ https://divestos.org/pages/devices#device-fp4 https://divestos.org/pages/devices#device-fp4 Super happy with it, but yeah no headphone jack, but i have it with the usb-c convertor.
    - toastal 4y ago
      I'm not happy with that compromise. I don't want to choose between charging and audio. And the dongles that can do both are actually really bulky. And Bluetooth headphones are a scam: too small to be repaired, must worry about batteries, Bluetooth likes to be flaky in general, almost all buds have terrible frequency response curves so the audio quality is not very good.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Take a look at my Amazon link above. This is a 5G "daily driver" from 2021 with a headphone jack, 6/128 GB and a big 5000mAH battery. It's everything that the average Joe really needs for only $99 refurbed. As I said above, I just installed e/OS on one as a Christmas present. It runs very smooth and fluid, better than stock because the background Google spyware crap is gone.
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  > the Google Play store doesn't work but that's no big loss It's the loss of an entire ecosystem worth of apps. If you want an inexpensive phone that will get five or six years of first party support with security updates after that, go with an iPhone SE. The original $399 version got six years of OS updates and just got another security update last month. That's $67 per year that got both an OS update and security update.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    It's the loss of an entire ecosystem worth of apps. No, it's not. With very few exceptions, the Aurora store pulls apps from Google Play. About the only thing I have seen missing from Aurora store is a few super strict banking apps but you can usually just use their web site.
    - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
      No paid apps though, right? That would be somewhat painful for me.
      - jqpabc123 4y ago
        You can do paid apps. You just have to login to Aurora using a Google account instead of anonymously. This isn't so bad if you use a privacy focused ROM and create a special, single purpose Google login that is only used for app purchases. I also suggest keeping a Google gift card for the occasional purchase. Privacy invasion doesn't really kick in until you start re-using your Google login and your phone/apps are reporting back to Google on a regular basis with your location, device IMEI, advertising ID, hardware fingerprint, email address, browsing/search history, banking/purchase details (aka Google Pay), etc..
        Tijdreiziger 4y ago
        Ah, with paid apps I also mean in-app purchases. I guess it might be possible by running sandboxed Play Services on GrapheneOS?
worksonmine 4y ago
I'm considering one of the Linux phones, don't use many apps anyway. I know that's a hard sell for most but it's becoming a real option even for normal users.
- jacooper 4y ago
  I would recommend a Pixel with GrapheneOS or calyx. You get the usability of Android with (optional)sandboxes google services/microg. Almost all apps work and its really usable.
  - fsflover 4y ago
    I can run Android apps with Waydroid on my Librem 5, and I also get the benefits of a full desktop OS on my phone.
    - bacchusracine 4y ago
      >on my Librem 5 Sounds interesting. Goes and looks it up. >>From: $1,999.00 You must be joking...
      - fsflover 4y ago
        >>From: $1,999.00 This is the cost of Librem 5 USA (made in USA) [0], not Librem 5 (made in China) [1]. Also, I preordered it for $600 a long time ago, and sometimes you can buy from resellers for a similar price [2]. [0] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa [1] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 [2] https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-for-sale-eu-630-eur/19445 https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-for-sale-eu-630-eur/19445
        bacchusracine 4y ago
        >>This is the cost of Librem 5 USA (made in USA) [0], not Librem 5 (made in China) I suppose that helps a little. I seem to have incorrectly assumed that the USA model was intended for use in the USA, not simply assembled there. Still crazy expensive. For that price I'd expect it to come with a keyboard and mouse and replace my Thinkpad altogether.
codemac 4y ago
> refusing to block tracking You realize that Apple is still doing the tracking, just not allowing third parties?
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
  It would increase the privacy of Google products if they blocked third-party tracking on their devices. It would be more private still if Google didn't do their own tracking but that is still a separate point.
- GeekyBear 4y ago
  Tracking logged on users in first party apps is something everyone can do. Not just Apple.
  - lern_too_spel 4y ago
    The difference is you have no choice but to use these Apple apps with tracking.
    - GeekyBear 4y ago
      > According to an analysis by StockApps.com, out of the five major digital firms (Google, Twitter, Apple, Amazon, and Facebook.) Google harvests the most data on its users. The corporation collects thirty-nine data points for each user. Apple is in a league above Amazon in protecting user privacy. It is the most privacy-conscious firm out there. Apple only stores the information that is necessary to maintain users’ accounts. https://stockapps.com/blog/google-tracks-39-types-of-private-data-the-highest-among-big-tech-companies/ https://stockapps.com/blog/google-tracks-39-types-of-private...
      - lern_too_spel 4y ago
        Apple stores data on who reads what articles in its News app to target ads. It stores data on who downloads which apps in the App Store to show ads. It will do more and more of this. Unlike Android, iPhone offers no other source for apps, and it does not let you uninstall the News app. User choice is required for real privacy. By that measure (for users who care about privacy and choose apps accordingly), Apple is the worst choice for privacy.
matheusmoreira 4y ago
With hardware remote attestation there will no longer be any point in even owning an android phone anyway. Android is obviously inferior to iOS in every way but the whole point was you could have control over the machine and do whatever you wanted. Now apps will be able to verify that you "tampered" with the phone and will refuse to run, and since it's hardware cryptography it cannot be faked without massive effort. Might as well get an iPhone which at least isn't a shitty Google product. Termux is the one android exclusive software I can't live without and they managed to fuck even that up by killing processes indiscriminately in order to save battery or whatever. If there's no solution by the time my phone dies, my next one will be an iPhone.
- thedriver 4y ago
  >With hardware remote attestation there will no longer be any point in even owning an android phone anyway. Android is obviously inferior to iOS in every way but the whole point was you could have control over the machine and do whatever you wanted. Now apps will be able to verify that you "tampered" with the phone and will refuse to run, and since it's hardware cryptography it cannot be faked without massive effort. Might as well get an iPhone which at least isn't a shitty Google product. Wait a minute, will something like this really come to Android phones? I guess that installing a custom rom will become impossible at the same time? If this happens, then there truly isn't going to be much point in using an Android phone over an iPhone
  - boring_twenties 4y ago
    It won't become impossible to install a custom rom, it will simply become impossible to use many if not most popular apps. Android already provides a mechanism for apps to refuse to run on modified devices, it's called SafetyNet and is widely used for example by banking apps. Currently, it's usually possible to trick it, but with hardware attestation it will become practically impossible.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      Yes, some banking apps do this. The simple solution --- install the bank's web site as an app. Go to the site, click the browser menu button (3 dots on Android or up arrow on iOS) and select "Add to Home Screen". You now have a link icon on your phone that looks and acts just like any other app. Some banks (Chase for example) offer a "Progress Web App" which removes the browser interface elements so the causal observer can't even tell it's not a native app. https://www.howtogeek.com/342121/what-are-progressive-web-apps/ https://www.howtogeek.com/342121/what-are-progressive-web-ap...
skrowl 4y ago
Apple isn't actually doing anything for privacy, they just say they are. Testing proves otherwise time and time again https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-privacy-4th-lawsuit-1850048418 https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-privacy-4th-lawsu...

by shmapf 4y ago

I've been staunchly on the Android side of the Android / iOS question, but this carry-on with refusing to block tracking like Apple has done is really making me consider switching.

kube-system 4y ago

Waiting for Google to protect your privacy is like waiting on a billboard company to improve the natural beauty of the roadside landscape.

0xfaded 4y ago
I already have a second hand iphone for iMessage. Having a "sanctioned" device for baking apps and a device I control for everything else seems like the best hope for compromise these days.

jqpabc123 4y ago

No need to pay double or triple for hardware. There are lots of privacy focused alternatives that are Android based. Personally, I like e/OS: https://e.foundation/ https://e.foundation/ You can buy a ready to use phone on their web site or you can install the OS on a compatible phone of your own. I have installed this on about 10 phones (all Motorola) for friends and family. Here is an example of one that I just put together as a Christmas present. https://www.amazon.com/Motorola-T-Mobile-Unlocked-XT2113-2-Smartphone/dp/B09DTHD61W/ref=sr_1_6 https://www.amazon.com/Motorola-T-Mobile-Unlocked-XT2113-2-S... As a de-Googled phone, the Google Play store doesn't work but that's no big loss because I can get any software I need from F-Droid and Aurora Store. https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.aurora.store/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/com.aurora.store/

2-718-281-828 4y ago
where did this come from all of a sudden? I thought I knew all the Android alternatives. why does this super polished website for this out of nowhere suddenly maintained technology give me strong [intelligence agency of your choice] vibes?
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  This has been out there for years --- since 2018. And check your vibe meter, it is acting up. The main person behind this was the creator of Mandrake Linux. https://itsfoss.com/e-os-review/ https://itsfoss.com/e-os-review/
  - 2-718-281-828 4y ago
    you're right ... I must have confused something. will check it out
toastal 4y ago
Can any of these privacy-oriented forks support a device from within the last two years with a headphone jack?
- nix23 4y ago
  I have the fairphone 4 with divestOS: https://shop.fairphone.com/ https://shop.fairphone.com/ https://divestos.org/pages/devices#device-fp4 https://divestos.org/pages/devices#device-fp4 Super happy with it, but yeah no headphone jack, but i have it with the usb-c convertor.
  - toastal 4y ago
    I'm not happy with that compromise. I don't want to choose between charging and audio. And the dongles that can do both are actually really bulky. And Bluetooth headphones are a scam: too small to be repaired, must worry about batteries, Bluetooth likes to be flaky in general, almost all buds have terrible frequency response curves so the audio quality is not very good.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  Take a look at my Amazon link above. This is a 5G "daily driver" from 2021 with a headphone jack, 6/128 GB and a big 5000mAH battery. It's everything that the average Joe really needs for only $99 refurbed. As I said above, I just installed e/OS on one as a Christmas present. It runs very smooth and fluid, better than stock because the background Google spyware crap is gone.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
GeekyBear 4y ago
> the Google Play store doesn't work but that's no big loss It's the loss of an entire ecosystem worth of apps. If you want an inexpensive phone that will get five or six years of first party support with security updates after that, go with an iPhone SE. The original $399 version got six years of OS updates and just got another security update last month. That's $67 per year that got both an OS update and security update.
- jqpabc123 4y ago
  It's the loss of an entire ecosystem worth of apps. No, it's not. With very few exceptions, the Aurora store pulls apps from Google Play. About the only thing I have seen missing from Aurora store is a few super strict banking apps but you can usually just use their web site.
  - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
    No paid apps though, right? That would be somewhat painful for me.
    - jqpabc123 4y ago
      You can do paid apps. You just have to login to Aurora using a Google account instead of anonymously. This isn't so bad if you use a privacy focused ROM and create a special, single purpose Google login that is only used for app purchases. I also suggest keeping a Google gift card for the occasional purchase. Privacy invasion doesn't really kick in until you start re-using your Google login and your phone/apps are reporting back to Google on a regular basis with your location, device IMEI, advertising ID, hardware fingerprint, email address, browsing/search history, banking/purchase details (aka Google Pay), etc..
      - Tijdreiziger 4y ago
        Ah, with paid apps I also mean in-app purchases. I guess it might be possible by running sandboxed Play Services on GrapheneOS?

worksonmine 4y ago

I'm considering one of the Linux phones, don't use many apps anyway. I know that's a hard sell for most but it's becoming a real option even for normal users.

jacooper 4y ago
I would recommend a Pixel with GrapheneOS or calyx. You get the usability of Android with (optional)sandboxes google services/microg. Almost all apps work and its really usable.
- fsflover 4y ago
  I can run Android apps with Waydroid on my Librem 5, and I also get the benefits of a full desktop OS on my phone.
  - bacchusracine 4y ago
    >on my Librem 5 Sounds interesting. Goes and looks it up. >>From: $1,999.00 You must be joking...
    - fsflover 4y ago
      >>From: $1,999.00 This is the cost of Librem 5 USA (made in USA) [0], not Librem 5 (made in China) [1]. Also, I preordered it for $600 a long time ago, and sometimes you can buy from resellers for a similar price [2]. [0] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa https://puri.sm/products/librem-5-usa [1] https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 [2] https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-for-sale-eu-630-eur/19445 https://forums.puri.sm/t/librem-5-for-sale-eu-630-eur/19445
      - bacchusracine 4y ago
        >>This is the cost of Librem 5 USA (made in USA) [0], not Librem 5 (made in China) I suppose that helps a little. I seem to have incorrectly assumed that the USA model was intended for use in the USA, not simply assembled there. Still crazy expensive. For that price I'd expect it to come with a keyboard and mouse and replace my Thinkpad altogether.

codemac 4y ago

> refusing to block tracking You realize that Apple is still doing the tracking, just not allowing third parties?

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 4y ago
It would increase the privacy of Google products if they blocked third-party tracking on their devices. It would be more private still if Google didn't do their own tracking but that is still a separate point.
GeekyBear 4y ago
Tracking logged on users in first party apps is something everyone can do. Not just Apple.
- lern_too_spel 4y ago
  The difference is you have no choice but to use these Apple apps with tracking.
  - GeekyBear 4y ago
    > According to an analysis by StockApps.com, out of the five major digital firms (Google, Twitter, Apple, Amazon, and Facebook.) Google harvests the most data on its users. The corporation collects thirty-nine data points for each user. Apple is in a league above Amazon in protecting user privacy. It is the most privacy-conscious firm out there. Apple only stores the information that is necessary to maintain users’ accounts. https://stockapps.com/blog/google-tracks-39-types-of-private-data-the-highest-among-big-tech-companies/ https://stockapps.com/blog/google-tracks-39-types-of-private...
    - lern_too_spel 4y ago
      Apple stores data on who reads what articles in its News app to target ads. It stores data on who downloads which apps in the App Store to show ads. It will do more and more of this. Unlike Android, iPhone offers no other source for apps, and it does not let you uninstall the News app. User choice is required for real privacy. By that measure (for users who care about privacy and choose apps accordingly), Apple is the worst choice for privacy.

matheusmoreira 4y ago

With hardware remote attestation there will no longer be any point in even owning an android phone anyway. Android is obviously inferior to iOS in every way but the whole point was you could have control over the machine and do whatever you wanted. Now apps will be able to verify that you "tampered" with the phone and will refuse to run, and since it's hardware cryptography it cannot be faked without massive effort. Might as well get an iPhone which at least isn't a shitty Google product. Termux is the one android exclusive software I can't live without and they managed to fuck even that up by killing processes indiscriminately in order to save battery or whatever. If there's no solution by the time my phone dies, my next one will be an iPhone.

thedriver 4y ago
>With hardware remote attestation there will no longer be any point in even owning an android phone anyway. Android is obviously inferior to iOS in every way but the whole point was you could have control over the machine and do whatever you wanted. Now apps will be able to verify that you "tampered" with the phone and will refuse to run, and since it's hardware cryptography it cannot be faked without massive effort. Might as well get an iPhone which at least isn't a shitty Google product. Wait a minute, will something like this really come to Android phones? I guess that installing a custom rom will become impossible at the same time? If this happens, then there truly isn't going to be much point in using an Android phone over an iPhone
- boring_twenties 4y ago
  It won't become impossible to install a custom rom, it will simply become impossible to use many if not most popular apps. Android already provides a mechanism for apps to refuse to run on modified devices, it's called SafetyNet and is widely used for example by banking apps. Currently, it's usually possible to trick it, but with hardware attestation it will become practically impossible.
  - jqpabc123 4y ago
    Yes, some banking apps do this. The simple solution --- install the bank's web site as an app. Go to the site, click the browser menu button (3 dots on Android or up arrow on iOS) and select "Add to Home Screen". You now have a link icon on your phone that looks and acts just like any other app. Some banks (Chase for example) offer a "Progress Web App" which removes the browser interface elements so the causal observer can't even tell it's not a native app. https://www.howtogeek.com/342121/what-are-progressive-web-apps/ https://www.howtogeek.com/342121/what-are-progressive-web-ap...

skrowl 4y ago

Apple isn't actually doing anything for privacy, they just say they are. Testing proves otherwise time and time again https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-privacy-4th-lawsuit-1850048418 https://gizmodo.com/apple-iphone-analytics-privacy-4th-lawsu...