4 ms·

The "dying animals but no casualities" angle really gets to me. This is possibly the source of millions of future cancers in America. The damage will persist ov

The "dying animals but no casualities" angle really gets to me. This is possibly the source of millions of future cancers in America. The damage will persist over decades. They're just downplaying it until something else comes along in the news.

shadowgovt 4y ago
Vinyl chloride decays into 14-CO2 at 99 parts per 100 within 100 days. There might be more than zero cancers resulting from the spill, but odds are low. Carcinogenic numbers for vinyl chloride are for chronic long-term exposure in plant workers because it doesn't stick around long enough for chronic short-term exposure.
- speed_spread 4y ago
  It's no longer vinyl chloride if you set it on fire though. A lot of what is going up in that cloud is gonna turn up to be much more persistent and insidious.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    On the contrary, the cloud is mostly CO2 and soot, trace phosgene (breaks down faster than vinyl chloride), and HCL (reacts with everything; is probably fully absorbed into the environment right now). There is a recommendation to clean the soot and vacuum, but otherwise no major alerts regarding the cloud of burn products that I've seen. They burned it on purpose to turn the vinyl chloride and other chemicals on the train into less harmful byproducts.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  I won't pretend to be a chemist but... Where does the chlorine go if it just turns to CO2? Wikipedia says you get HCl and Polymers and Carbon Monoxide. And in an open fire in an uncontrolled environment with impure inputs, who the fuck knows what is actually being released? That might ultimately be fine. But I think this is a much much more complex problem than C2H3CL+O2->CO2 I think the right answer to all of this is (1) to be really up front about what is happening and (2) for independent respected experts (EPA? MIT?) to be taking samples and testing them. Has that happened? (Edit: Just the fact the cloud is not transparent proves it is more than CO2...)
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    The chlorine doesn't turn into CO2. HCL reacts with everything and turns into salt and water. But it reacts so rapidly and so readily that it was basically all used up well before the evac order was lifted (possibly, the area will see a little acid rain, but not as bad as in the era of un-scrubbed fossil fuel plants everywhere. And acid rain doesn't mean "you go outside and melt;" it's hard on paint, plastics, open water, and plants because it effs with the pH, but at the concentrations from a few train cars spread over hundreds of square miles, life will handle it. Better than leaving the vinyl chloride concentrated in one place to do damage and then denature into HCL on its own). Most of the visible chunk of the cloud is soot (solid carbon chains). The EPA has recommended cleaning up the soot where it lands. ... And they are currently doing ongoing air quality testing, yes. The tests continue to show acceptable levels of impurities IIUC.

shadowgovt 4y ago

Vinyl chloride decays into 14-CO2 at 99 parts per 100 within 100 days. There might be more than zero cancers resulting from the spill, but odds are low. Carcinogenic numbers for vinyl chloride are for chronic long-term exposure in plant workers because it doesn't stick around long enough for chronic short-term exposure.

speed_spread 4y ago
It's no longer vinyl chloride if you set it on fire though. A lot of what is going up in that cloud is gonna turn up to be much more persistent and insidious.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  On the contrary, the cloud is mostly CO2 and soot, trace phosgene (breaks down faster than vinyl chloride), and HCL (reacts with everything; is probably fully absorbed into the environment right now). There is a recommendation to clean the soot and vacuum, but otherwise no major alerts regarding the cloud of burn products that I've seen. They burned it on purpose to turn the vinyl chloride and other chemicals on the train into less harmful byproducts.
LatteLazy 4y ago
I won't pretend to be a chemist but... Where does the chlorine go if it just turns to CO2? Wikipedia says you get HCl and Polymers and Carbon Monoxide. And in an open fire in an uncontrolled environment with impure inputs, who the fuck knows what is actually being released? That might ultimately be fine. But I think this is a much much more complex problem than C2H3CL+O2->CO2 I think the right answer to all of this is (1) to be really up front about what is happening and (2) for independent respected experts (EPA? MIT?) to be taking samples and testing them. Has that happened? (Edit: Just the fact the cloud is not transparent proves it is more than CO2...)
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  The chlorine doesn't turn into CO2. HCL reacts with everything and turns into salt and water. But it reacts so rapidly and so readily that it was basically all used up well before the evac order was lifted (possibly, the area will see a little acid rain, but not as bad as in the era of un-scrubbed fossil fuel plants everywhere. And acid rain doesn't mean "you go outside and melt;" it's hard on paint, plastics, open water, and plants because it effs with the pH, but at the concentrations from a few train cars spread over hundreds of square miles, life will handle it. Better than leaving the vinyl chloride concentrated in one place to do damage and then denature into HCL on its own). Most of the visible chunk of the cloud is soot (solid carbon chains). The EPA has recommended cleaning up the soot where it lands. ... And they are currently doing ongoing air quality testing, yes. The tests continue to show acceptable levels of impurities IIUC.