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It's more than just fees and surveillance. It means you need permission for each transaction. Permission to buy a loaf of bread, a taxi ride, a train ticket. An

It's more than just fees and surveillance. It means you need permission for each transaction. Permission to buy a loaf of bread, a taxi ride, a train ticket. And even Canada does things such as freeze protester's bank accounts without trial. Let's not make it that easy for them, shall we?

traspler 4y ago
Absolutely. Other comments here already discuss that. But I think there is discussion to be had about how cash enables certain crimes and what impact that has on us, how cashless can change this and on the other hand how handing full control over our ability to spend money is handed over to the government and what risks are associated with that and what mitigations are possible. Also the state already has many, many ways to make your life hell. How big the impact of this additional way is, also needs to be discussed. I'm pretty sure most people don't store their life savings in cash at home and freezing your bank account has a similar impact now even though cash is still available.
- esperent 4y ago
  > cash enables certain crimes Vs > handing full control over our ability to spend money is handed over to the government Seems like the second one enables the crime of disenfranchisement, except that no one will be able to label it a crime and no one will ever be punished because it's the government doing it. See the recent example of the Canadian government cutting off protesters bank access without trial. Whatever you think of the protests, that's a terrible thing for a government to be able to do. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/world/americas/canada-protest-finances.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/world/americas/canada-pro...
- irthomasthomas 4y ago
  People will just barter if they want the drugs bad enough. This only adds one step to the purchase.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  Black markets are notorious for dealing in foreign currencies or exchanging goods or other convertible assets. Removing cash from the equation has never stopped criminals from operating, see prisons, hyperinflation, wartime, etc. People just invent or adopt a new currency if you take away the current one.
  - traspler 4y ago
    There should be data about that from Sweden, no? I don't know what the situation there is regarding that but would like to know.
helloooooooo 4y ago
It was under emergency legislation. Account freezing can’t just happen out of the blue.
- rightbyte 4y ago
  "Emergency legislations" can happen out of the blue. And flipping a bit to trash my card might take some hours after that. Removing cash at least would have one or two elections between the ban and it taking effect.
  - kragen 4y ago
    modi demonetized most bills overnight
    - rightbyte 4y ago
      Sure. My point is also that "revoking all bills" is a bigger step than "disable a card", even though both or possible. Having cash is a bigger buffer against politicians up to no good. Also you can't target an individual by revoking bills, so the threshold is way higher.
      - kragen 4y ago
        fair point
- sethammons 4y ago
  It would never be used against political rivals or to prolong a corrupt government; nope, never.
- tokinonagare 4y ago
  This doesn't change anything. It's actually even more scary that governments can pull up laws that quickly that are restraining liberties this much so quickly. I saw it in my country, which I hopefully didn't live in at the time: in less than half a year millions of citizens were stripped of basic liberties such as movement. And despite decades of anti-racism propaganda, it took less than a pair of months to create a state-enforced cast of paria with less rights than others (we're speaking of access to businesses, to healthcare, etc.) And they would have no legal way of exiting the country except by doing it illegally or by forging documentation. Most Western states are a few bills away of turning full China. They now it, and will surf on any perceived or real crisis to get to that point somedays. In the meantime, they do it step by step.
ajsnigrutin 4y ago
And not just that... I'd mention ukraine, but even in peace time, there can be huge power outages in relatively large areas (as in US, more than one in the recent years), where point of sale terminals stop working, there is no internet connection to process the transaction, but exchanging a few bills, for whatever you need always works, even in the dark. Also privacy... Want to buy a huge buttplug from a "Huge buttplug store ltd.", but your government could collapse in a few years and the new one might not like people (especially guys) using huge buttplugs? With cash, there's nothing to trace... with cards, the government can get a list of names in few seconds.
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  Don't even need something as widespread as a power outage. Ransomeware or other security breaches can bring down payment systems for extended periods of time and can be far more difficult to fix.
- enigma20 4y ago
  Been in Norway recently. After long drive and reaching the airbnb, we went to the store to buy some food for dinner. Electricity went out. Payment by card not possible, payment by cash not possible. I even asked if I could take the food, leave my ID and come later to pay. They said no. What to do? Luckily after 20 minutes it was back, and after few more minutes all terminals were back online.
makeitdouble 4y ago
There are other options than the credit/debit card model. NFC secure area base locally stored accounts are a pretty good compromise for instance. The account is locally encrypted, anonymous, with a ceiling on the max charge. You’ll pay for bread with no latency, and will only hit the network at charge time and/or if you need to for backup.
zirgs 4y ago
If the state freezes your bank account then you're already fucked. And nothing stops them from raiding your home and confiscating your physical cash as well. I'm from an ex-USSR country. You can't stop an authoritarian government with physical cash in your mattress.
- marssaxman 4y ago
  You can't stop them, but you can make it more expensive.
- nhchris 4y ago
  Yes, they can always stuff you into a cage when they catch you. That doesn't mean we should live in a cage full-time. As I and the sibling comment said, let's not make it easy for them. The USSR did break up, and tyrannical governments get overthrown - but that's going to be a lot harder to do if state repression becomes more efficient and easy.
- 0xblood 4y ago
  What a weird argument. I guess you also don't use encryption ever because authoritarian governments can just extort the keys from you. Somehow I doubt you grew up in an USSR country or ever cared about the life back then in more detail
  - zirgs 4y ago
    I use encryption to prevent criminals from stealing my data. Not because I'm afraid that my government might turn tyrannical.
    - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
      [dead]
    - pbak 4y ago
      Give it a couple more years.
- 4y ago

traspler 4y ago

Absolutely. Other comments here already discuss that. But I think there is discussion to be had about how cash enables certain crimes and what impact that has on us, how cashless can change this and on the other hand how handing full control over our ability to spend money is handed over to the government and what risks are associated with that and what mitigations are possible. Also the state already has many, many ways to make your life hell. How big the impact of this additional way is, also needs to be discussed. I'm pretty sure most people don't store their life savings in cash at home and freezing your bank account has a similar impact now even though cash is still available.

esperent 4y ago
> cash enables certain crimes Vs > handing full control over our ability to spend money is handed over to the government Seems like the second one enables the crime of disenfranchisement, except that no one will be able to label it a crime and no one will ever be punished because it's the government doing it. See the recent example of the Canadian government cutting off protesters bank access without trial. Whatever you think of the protests, that's a terrible thing for a government to be able to do. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/world/americas/canada-protest-finances.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/world/americas/canada-pro...
irthomasthomas 4y ago
People will just barter if they want the drugs bad enough. This only adds one step to the purchase.
throwaway4aday 4y ago
Black markets are notorious for dealing in foreign currencies or exchanging goods or other convertible assets. Removing cash from the equation has never stopped criminals from operating, see prisons, hyperinflation, wartime, etc. People just invent or adopt a new currency if you take away the current one.
- traspler 4y ago
  There should be data about that from Sweden, no? I don't know what the situation there is regarding that but would like to know.

helloooooooo 4y ago

It was under emergency legislation. Account freezing can’t just happen out of the blue.

rightbyte 4y ago
"Emergency legislations" can happen out of the blue. And flipping a bit to trash my card might take some hours after that. Removing cash at least would have one or two elections between the ban and it taking effect.
- kragen 4y ago
  modi demonetized most bills overnight
  - rightbyte 4y ago
    Sure. My point is also that "revoking all bills" is a bigger step than "disable a card", even though both or possible. Having cash is a bigger buffer against politicians up to no good. Also you can't target an individual by revoking bills, so the threshold is way higher.
    - kragen 4y ago
      fair point
sethammons 4y ago
It would never be used against political rivals or to prolong a corrupt government; nope, never.
tokinonagare 4y ago
This doesn't change anything. It's actually even more scary that governments can pull up laws that quickly that are restraining liberties this much so quickly. I saw it in my country, which I hopefully didn't live in at the time: in less than half a year millions of citizens were stripped of basic liberties such as movement. And despite decades of anti-racism propaganda, it took less than a pair of months to create a state-enforced cast of paria with less rights than others (we're speaking of access to businesses, to healthcare, etc.) And they would have no legal way of exiting the country except by doing it illegally or by forging documentation. Most Western states are a few bills away of turning full China. They now it, and will surf on any perceived or real crisis to get to that point somedays. In the meantime, they do it step by step.

ajsnigrutin 4y ago

And not just that... I'd mention ukraine, but even in peace time, there can be huge power outages in relatively large areas (as in US, more than one in the recent years), where point of sale terminals stop working, there is no internet connection to process the transaction, but exchanging a few bills, for whatever you need always works, even in the dark. Also privacy... Want to buy a huge buttplug from a "Huge buttplug store ltd.", but your government could collapse in a few years and the new one might not like people (especially guys) using huge buttplugs? With cash, there's nothing to trace... with cards, the government can get a list of names in few seconds.

throwaway4aday 4y ago
Don't even need something as widespread as a power outage. Ransomeware or other security breaches can bring down payment systems for extended periods of time and can be far more difficult to fix.
enigma20 4y ago
Been in Norway recently. After long drive and reaching the airbnb, we went to the store to buy some food for dinner. Electricity went out. Payment by card not possible, payment by cash not possible. I even asked if I could take the food, leave my ID and come later to pay. They said no. What to do? Luckily after 20 minutes it was back, and after few more minutes all terminals were back online.

makeitdouble 4y ago

There are other options than the credit/debit card model. NFC secure area base locally stored accounts are a pretty good compromise for instance. The account is locally encrypted, anonymous, with a ceiling on the max charge. You’ll pay for bread with no latency, and will only hit the network at charge time and/or if you need to for backup.

zirgs 4y ago

If the state freezes your bank account then you're already fucked. And nothing stops them from raiding your home and confiscating your physical cash as well. I'm from an ex-USSR country. You can't stop an authoritarian government with physical cash in your mattress.

marssaxman 4y ago
You can't stop them, but you can make it more expensive.
nhchris 4y ago
Yes, they can always stuff you into a cage when they catch you. That doesn't mean we should live in a cage full-time. As I and the sibling comment said, let's not make it easy for them. The USSR did break up, and tyrannical governments get overthrown - but that's going to be a lot harder to do if state repression becomes more efficient and easy.
0xblood 4y ago
What a weird argument. I guess you also don't use encryption ever because authoritarian governments can just extort the keys from you. Somehow I doubt you grew up in an USSR country or ever cared about the life back then in more detail
- zirgs 4y ago
  I use encryption to prevent criminals from stealing my data. Not because I'm afraid that my government might turn tyrannical.
  - Slava_Propanei 4y ago
    [dead]
  - pbak 4y ago
    Give it a couple more years.
4y ago