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- "either don't understand the 1st Amendment or just don't care about it" And, transitively, don't understand or care about their civic duty to uphold and prom

- "either don't understand the 1st Amendment or just don't care about it" And, transitively, don't understand or care about their civic duty to uphold and promote those values, as elected leaders. It's not a "no-op" to pass an unconstitutional law that's immediately struck down by courts. It's an erosion of norms. The norm that elected leaders uphold the constitutional order, which constrains their power; and don't seek to break out of it. The norm that the system of freedom we live under is an expensive and valuable thing (and that this is a universally shared value); not something cheap and haggle-able.

Dalewyn 4y ago
>The norm that elected leaders uphold the constitutional order, which constrains their power; and don't seek to break out of it. Let's be real: When has that /ever/ been the norm? Anyone who chooses to pursue an office in governance is there to grab power or enrich themselves. No exceptions. The only question is how brazen they are about it.
- notch898a 4y ago
  Sortition is one of those idea that when I was a young man I thought was dumb, but the older I get the more I realize elections end up with someone stupid or corrupt anyway so we me as well get a random sample of the populace to round things out. Sadly the two party elected system is probably one of those things that is difficult to impossible to break out of, as the parties will never vote to suicide themselves.
  - SQueeeeeL 4y ago
    It's actually pretty easy to break out of, historically two party democracies aren't very common. Just need a war or revolution. Now breaking it out of it without majorly messing up things for a lot of the populace, that's a little harder, but once things are already pretty awful for 98% of people a revolution starts being more realistic
  - hunter-gatherer 4y ago
    Sortition was one of those things I also thought was dumb until I worked in Federal Government and was "graced" on a few occassions by elected and designated officials. I soon realized that any random person could mostly do just as well, if not better.
  - naasking 4y ago
    > Sortition is one of those idea that when I was a young man I thought was dumb, Yes, sortition sounds dumb until you learn that those who seek positions of power are the last ones you want to get them.
    - goatlover 4y ago
      To paraphrase Frank Herbert, it's not that power corrupts, but rather that the corruptible seek power. This is also a problem with revolutionary movements. Who gets to be in charge if you win? Odds are someone who ends up using the revolution to get power.
- askvictor 4y ago
  And the next level is to stack the Supreme court with judges sympathetic to your view of the constitution.
- kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
  > Let's be real: When has that /ever/ been the norm? Every one of them swears an oath to uphold the US constitution. The sad thing is that their civic knowledge is so limited that few of them understand the principles they are proclaiming to serve by. https://ballotpedia.org/Article_XIII,_New_York_Constitution https://ballotpedia.org/Article_XIII,_New_York_Constitution
- WalterBright 4y ago
  The exception is George Washington, who refused to become dictator, willingly limited the power of the Presidency, eschewed grandiose terms like "your Excellency", and left after two terms saying that was enough.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  I mean really, you think nobody has ever seen something and said "That is wrong" (whether it was wrong or not is another matter) and then decided to run for public office to make things right? Whether they get corrupted afterwards is another issue. Frankly it's ideas like this that normalize grabbing power and enriching yourself.

Dalewyn 4y ago

>The norm that elected leaders uphold the constitutional order, which constrains their power; and don't seek to break out of it. Let's be real: When has that /ever/ been the norm? Anyone who chooses to pursue an office in governance is there to grab power or enrich themselves. No exceptions. The only question is how brazen they are about it.

notch898a 4y ago
Sortition is one of those idea that when I was a young man I thought was dumb, but the older I get the more I realize elections end up with someone stupid or corrupt anyway so we me as well get a random sample of the populace to round things out. Sadly the two party elected system is probably one of those things that is difficult to impossible to break out of, as the parties will never vote to suicide themselves.
- SQueeeeeL 4y ago
  It's actually pretty easy to break out of, historically two party democracies aren't very common. Just need a war or revolution. Now breaking it out of it without majorly messing up things for a lot of the populace, that's a little harder, but once things are already pretty awful for 98% of people a revolution starts being more realistic
- hunter-gatherer 4y ago
  Sortition was one of those things I also thought was dumb until I worked in Federal Government and was "graced" on a few occassions by elected and designated officials. I soon realized that any random person could mostly do just as well, if not better.
- naasking 4y ago
  > Sortition is one of those idea that when I was a young man I thought was dumb, Yes, sortition sounds dumb until you learn that those who seek positions of power are the last ones you want to get them.
  - goatlover 4y ago
    To paraphrase Frank Herbert, it's not that power corrupts, but rather that the corruptible seek power. This is also a problem with revolutionary movements. Who gets to be in charge if you win? Odds are someone who ends up using the revolution to get power.
askvictor 4y ago
And the next level is to stack the Supreme court with judges sympathetic to your view of the constitution.
kevin_thibedeau 4y ago
> Let's be real: When has that /ever/ been the norm? Every one of them swears an oath to uphold the US constitution. The sad thing is that their civic knowledge is so limited that few of them understand the principles they are proclaiming to serve by. https://ballotpedia.org/Article_XIII,_New_York_Constitution https://ballotpedia.org/Article_XIII,_New_York_Constitution
WalterBright 4y ago
The exception is George Washington, who refused to become dictator, willingly limited the power of the Presidency, eschewed grandiose terms like "your Excellency", and left after two terms saying that was enough.
bryanrasmussen 4y ago
I mean really, you think nobody has ever seen something and said "That is wrong" (whether it was wrong or not is another matter) and then decided to run for public office to make things right? Whether they get corrupted afterwards is another issue. Frankly it's ideas like this that normalize grabbing power and enriching yourself.