3 ms·

Poland, Czechoslovakia 1989 South Africa 1990

by ethbr0 4y ago

walterbell 4y ago
Were those based on pre-agreed criteria, or the result of widespread societal upheaval?
- ethbr0 4y ago
  They're "historical example(s) of a national or global institution voluntarily giving up totalitarian powers on the basis of subjective criteria" Not gonna play 20 questions as you try to downscope your ask.
  - walterbell 4y ago
    People taking control of their government after years of resistance and protests is not remotely the same as a government giving up control in response to pre-defined written criteria in a legal agreement like the IHR treaty.
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      The government voluntarily gave up powers in each of those circumstances. The people didn't take control.
      - walterbell 4y ago
        "Voluntarily". Where to start? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid > Between 1986 and 1988, some petty apartheid laws were repealed, along with the pass laws. Botha told White South Africans to "adapt or die" and twice he wavered on the eve of what were billed as "rubicon" announcements of substantial reforms, although on both occasions he backed away from substantial changes. Ironically, these reforms served only to trigger intensified political violence through the remainder of the 1980s as more communities and political groups across the country joined the resistance movement. > ... The Bisho massacre on 7 September 1992 brought matters to a head. The Ciskei Defence Force killed 29 people and injured 200 when they opened fire on ANC marchers demanding the reincorporation of the Ciskei homeland into South Africa. In the aftermath, Mandela and de Klerk agreed to meet to find ways to end the spiralling violence. This led to a resumption of negotiations.
        ethbr0 4y ago
        You're arguing that a government murding non-violent protesters is an example of a government being forced by protesters to cede its powers?

3 ms·

Poland, Czechoslovakia 1989 South Africa 1990

by ethbr0 4y ago

Poland, Czechoslovakia 1989 South Africa 1990

walterbell 4y ago
Were those based on pre-agreed criteria, or the result of widespread societal upheaval?
- ethbr0 4y ago
  They're "historical example(s) of a national or global institution voluntarily giving up totalitarian powers on the basis of subjective criteria" Not gonna play 20 questions as you try to downscope your ask.
  - walterbell 4y ago
    People taking control of their government after years of resistance and protests is not remotely the same as a government giving up control in response to pre-defined written criteria in a legal agreement like the IHR treaty.
    - ethbr0 4y ago
      The government voluntarily gave up powers in each of those circumstances. The people didn't take control.
      - walterbell 4y ago
        "Voluntarily". Where to start? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid > Between 1986 and 1988, some petty apartheid laws were repealed, along with the pass laws. Botha told White South Africans to "adapt or die" and twice he wavered on the eve of what were billed as "rubicon" announcements of substantial reforms, although on both occasions he backed away from substantial changes. Ironically, these reforms served only to trigger intensified political violence through the remainder of the 1980s as more communities and political groups across the country joined the resistance movement. > ... The Bisho massacre on 7 September 1992 brought matters to a head. The Ciskei Defence Force killed 29 people and injured 200 when they opened fire on ANC marchers demanding the reincorporation of the Ciskei homeland into South Africa. In the aftermath, Mandela and de Klerk agreed to meet to find ways to end the spiralling violence. This led to a resumption of negotiations.
        ethbr0 4y ago
        You're arguing that a government murding non-violent protesters is an example of a government being forced by protesters to cede its powers?