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I have my popcorn ready. Watching the number of EVs increase exponentially faster than the number of chargers. I think right now in UK, where most people are un

I have my popcorn ready. Watching the number of EVs increase exponentially faster than the number of chargers. I think right now in UK, where most people are unable to charge at home, there are regions with 1:50 charger to EV ratio which is just comical. Politicians are delusional with their plans to ban the sales of ICE cars in 2030, because it will take forever for the EV infrastructure to catch up.

coldtea 4y ago
Don't worry, the EV EU date ain't gonna happen anytime near the schedule. Those dates are for show, they'll always get pushed into the future...
- neverminder 4y ago
  Of course. But how will the manufacturers handle this uncertainty? Seriously, by setting such dates politicians are acting straight up maliciously. If the EVs are so great, let them take over in the natural course.
  - PoignardAzur 4y ago
    This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer.
    - throw009 4y ago
      As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them.
      - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        > This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer. > As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them. Your response doesn't logically match your intended message. It seems like you intend to disagree with the GP, but your response seems to validate the GP's point. > three current grids worth of wires Even if we assume it is true (it likely will not be because of home storage), by definition "3 current grids worth of wires" would be paid for by consumers buying electricity. Consumers buying electric cars are required to buy even more electricity. As such, with electric cars the externality you're point out is gonna be "paid [disproportionately] by the consumer causing it".
        throw009 4y ago
        This is what a copper mine looks like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine The electric car owners are not thr ones paying the externalities for it either. You can make the case the externalities are smaller but they still exist.
        yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        Ah, yes you are right! If we do need to triple the grid's copper, that would indeed result in unpaid externalities because of poor mining practices. Hopefully, the grid doesn't need to triple because of local storage. If it does, hopefully, the recyleability of copper makes the one time cost of mining and refining a smaller externality.
    - neverminder 4y ago
      As opposed to EVs that have considerably larger manufacturing carbon footprint compared to ICE cars? Also remind me what is the percentage of clean energy those EVs are consuming?
      - tzs 4y ago
        > As opposed to EVs that have considerably larger manufacturing carbon footprint compared to ICE cars? Irrelevant except perhaps for collector cars. For cars that are actually used the manufacturing differences will be swamped by the operational differences. > Also remind me what is the percentage of clean energy those EVs are consuming? Again irrelevant, because even if in a particular place now not much electricity comes from clean energy as they shift to more and more clean energy that improves all the EVs in service there. The ICEs in service will be just as dirty then as they are now. Also, if you do generate electricity from fossil fuels and use that to power cars it can be cleaner than using that fossil fuel directly to power cars. That's because burning it in the car greatly constrains how much equipment you can use to try to reduce or capture the emissions from that burning, because it all has to be small enough and light enough to include in a car. Burning that fuel instead to power generators that feed the grid doesn't suffer that problem. You can put more elaborate emissions control there than you could on a car.
        coldtea 4y ago
        >Irrelevant except perhaps for collector cars. For cars that are actually used the manufacturing differences will be swamped by the operational differences. You'd be surprised. This electricity needs to be generated, and it will hardly be clean for decades. It also needs to be stored in car batteries. And if the energy is "green", in grid "batteries" - plus all the work needed to support the green energy generation, solar panels, huge grid changes, etc. Both of which are nowhere near available, and it's not even certain they can be supported if EVs go to 100% of cars, neither from a manufacturing capacity wise, nor materials wise. And those need to be disposed too. And they'll need replacement during the car's life.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Meanwhile, we're making dates for replacing current cars, and "total EV" and the advent of VR "meta" reality, and cryptocurrency, and GPT-<N> AI, when the reality for the average person is getting more like: https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cpi-report-today-january-2023-inflation/card/to-save-money-maybe-you-should-skip-breakfast-fSd6mz0miaAPhUFb2jgy https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cpi-report-today-january-20... and like: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...
cyberge99 4y ago
The big difference is that most people can charge their EV’s at home. The majority of people charging are on long road trips. You can’t fill an ICE gasoline tank at home.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  > The big difference is that most people can charge their EV’s at home In EU 50% of people are living in apartments. With push on walkable cities this number will grow. So charging at home won't happen for most, it will be niche feature for rich few who has their own house with its own driveway. > You can’t fill an ICE gasoline tank at home. Give me funnel, cannister and watch me

coldtea 4y ago

Don't worry, the EV EU date ain't gonna happen anytime near the schedule. Those dates are for show, they'll always get pushed into the future...

neverminder 4y ago
Of course. But how will the manufacturers handle this uncertainty? Seriously, by setting such dates politicians are acting straight up maliciously. If the EVs are so great, let them take over in the natural course.
- PoignardAzur 4y ago
  This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer.
  - throw009 4y ago
    As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them.
    - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
      > This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer. > As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them. Your response doesn't logically match your intended message. It seems like you intend to disagree with the GP, but your response seems to validate the GP's point. > three current grids worth of wires Even if we assume it is true (it likely will not be because of home storage), by definition "3 current grids worth of wires" would be paid for by consumers buying electricity. Consumers buying electric cars are required to buy even more electricity. As such, with electric cars the externality you're point out is gonna be "paid [disproportionately] by the consumer causing it".
      - throw009 4y ago
        This is what a copper mine looks like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine The electric car owners are not thr ones paying the externalities for it either. You can make the case the externalities are smaller but they still exist.
        yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        Ah, yes you are right! If we do need to triple the grid's copper, that would indeed result in unpaid externalities because of poor mining practices. Hopefully, the grid doesn't need to triple because of local storage. If it does, hopefully, the recyleability of copper makes the one time cost of mining and refining a smaller externality.
  - neverminder 4y ago
    As opposed to EVs that have considerably larger manufacturing carbon footprint compared to ICE cars? Also remind me what is the percentage of clean energy those EVs are consuming?
    - tzs 4y ago
      > As opposed to EVs that have considerably larger manufacturing carbon footprint compared to ICE cars? Irrelevant except perhaps for collector cars. For cars that are actually used the manufacturing differences will be swamped by the operational differences. > Also remind me what is the percentage of clean energy those EVs are consuming? Again irrelevant, because even if in a particular place now not much electricity comes from clean energy as they shift to more and more clean energy that improves all the EVs in service there. The ICEs in service will be just as dirty then as they are now. Also, if you do generate electricity from fossil fuels and use that to power cars it can be cleaner than using that fossil fuel directly to power cars. That's because burning it in the car greatly constrains how much equipment you can use to try to reduce or capture the emissions from that burning, because it all has to be small enough and light enough to include in a car. Burning that fuel instead to power generators that feed the grid doesn't suffer that problem. You can put more elaborate emissions control there than you could on a car.
      - coldtea 4y ago
        >Irrelevant except perhaps for collector cars. For cars that are actually used the manufacturing differences will be swamped by the operational differences. You'd be surprised. This electricity needs to be generated, and it will hardly be clean for decades. It also needs to be stored in car batteries. And if the energy is "green", in grid "batteries" - plus all the work needed to support the green energy generation, solar panels, huge grid changes, etc. Both of which are nowhere near available, and it's not even certain they can be supported if EVs go to 100% of cars, neither from a manufacturing capacity wise, nor materials wise. And those need to be disposed too. And they'll need replacement during the car's life.
coldtea 4y ago
Meanwhile, we're making dates for replacing current cars, and "total EV" and the advent of VR "meta" reality, and cryptocurrency, and GPT-<N> AI, when the reality for the average person is getting more like: https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cpi-report-today-january-2023-inflation/card/to-save-money-maybe-you-should-skip-breakfast-fSd6mz0miaAPhUFb2jgy https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cpi-report-today-january-20... and like: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...

cyberge99 4y ago

The big difference is that most people can charge their EV’s at home. The majority of people charging are on long road trips. You can’t fill an ICE gasoline tank at home.

TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
> The big difference is that most people can charge their EV’s at home In EU 50% of people are living in apartments. With push on walkable cities this number will grow. So charging at home won't happen for most, it will be niche feature for rich few who has their own house with its own driveway. > You can’t fill an ICE gasoline tank at home. Give me funnel, cannister and watch me