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So Tesla goes down momentarily, it's huge news. Meanwhile, try taking a road trip with a non-Tesla vehicle. You will quickly see that more than half the charg

So Tesla goes down momentarily, it's huge news. Meanwhile, try taking a road trip with a non-Tesla vehicle. You will quickly see that more than half the chargers are broken, and the other half charge at slow rates, and half the charger locations are off or not even there.

neverminder 4y ago
I have my popcorn ready. Watching the number of EVs increase exponentially faster than the number of chargers. I think right now in UK, where most people are unable to charge at home, there are regions with 1:50 charger to EV ratio which is just comical. Politicians are delusional with their plans to ban the sales of ICE cars in 2030, because it will take forever for the EV infrastructure to catch up.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Don't worry, the EV EU date ain't gonna happen anytime near the schedule. Those dates are for show, they'll always get pushed into the future...
  - neverminder 4y ago
    Of course. But how will the manufacturers handle this uncertainty? Seriously, by setting such dates politicians are acting straight up maliciously. If the EVs are so great, let them take over in the natural course.
    - PoignardAzur 4y ago
      This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer.
      - throw009 4y ago
        As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them.
        yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        > This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer. > As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them. Your response doesn't logically match your intended message. It seems like you intend to disagree with the GP, but your response seems to validate the GP's point. > three current grids worth of wires Even if we assume it is true (it likely will not be because of home storage), by definition "3 current grids worth of wires" would be paid for by consumers buying electricity. Consumers buying electric cars are required to buy even more electricity. As such, with electric cars the externality you're point out is gonna be "paid [disproportionately] by the consumer causing it".
        throw009 4y ago
        This is what a copper mine looks like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine The electric car owners are not thr ones paying the externalities for it either. You can make the case the externalities are smaller but they still exist.
        yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        Ah, yes you are right! If we do need to triple the grid's copper, that would indeed result in unpaid externalities because of poor mining practices. Hopefully, the grid doesn't need to triple because of local storage. If it does, hopefully, the recyleability of copper makes the one time cost of mining and refining a smaller externality.
      - neverminder 4y ago
        As opposed to EVs that have considerably larger manufacturing carbon footprint compared to ICE cars? Also remind me what is the percentage of clean energy those EVs are consuming?
        tzs 4y ago
        > As opposed to EVs that have considerably larger manufacturing carbon footprint compared to ICE cars? Irrelevant except perhaps for collector cars. For cars that are actually used the manufacturing differences will be swamped by the operational differences. > Also remind me what is the percentage of clean energy those EVs are consuming? Again irrelevant, because even if in a particular place now not much electricity comes from clean energy as they shift to more and more clean energy that improves all the EVs in service there. The ICEs in service will be just as dirty then as they are now. Also, if you do generate electricity from fossil fuels and use that to power cars it can be cleaner than using that fossil fuel directly to power cars. That's because burning it in the car greatly constrains how much equipment you can use to try to reduce or capture the emissions from that burning, because it all has to be small enough and light enough to include in a car. Burning that fuel instead to power generators that feed the grid doesn't suffer that problem. You can put more elaborate emissions control there than you could on a car.
        coldtea 4y ago
        >Irrelevant except perhaps for collector cars. For cars that are actually used the manufacturing differences will be swamped by the operational differences. You'd be surprised. This electricity needs to be generated, and it will hardly be clean for decades. It also needs to be stored in car batteries. And if the energy is "green", in grid "batteries" - plus all the work needed to support the green energy generation, solar panels, huge grid changes, etc. Both of which are nowhere near available, and it's not even certain they can be supported if EVs go to 100% of cars, neither from a manufacturing capacity wise, nor materials wise. And those need to be disposed too. And they'll need replacement during the car's life.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    Meanwhile, we're making dates for replacing current cars, and "total EV" and the advent of VR "meta" reality, and cryptocurrency, and GPT-<N> AI, when the reality for the average person is getting more like: https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cpi-report-today-january-2023-inflation/card/to-save-money-maybe-you-should-skip-breakfast-fSd6mz0miaAPhUFb2jgy https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cpi-report-today-january-20... and like: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...
- cyberge99 4y ago
  The big difference is that most people can charge their EV’s at home. The majority of people charging are on long road trips. You can’t fill an ICE gasoline tank at home.
  - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
    > The big difference is that most people can charge their EV’s at home In EU 50% of people are living in apartments. With push on walkable cities this number will grow. So charging at home won't happen for most, it will be niche feature for rich few who has their own house with its own driveway. > You can’t fill an ICE gasoline tank at home. Give me funnel, cannister and watch me
ytdytvhxgydvhh 4y ago
I’ve taken plenty of road trips in non-Tesla vehicles, many before Tesla even existed. Non-Tesla cars work fine.
- simondotau 4y ago
  The vagueness in your reply is intriguing. I will assume you’re not being obnoxious and referring to an ICE vehicle. Well, Tesla “existed” in 2004 and its first commercially available vehicle, the Roadster, predates the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV. The Tesla Model S wasn’t the first EV, but it’s arguably the first commercially available product capable of a “road trip” by any reasonable definition of the term.
  - sixQuarks 4y ago
    Yeah, I think he was referring to ICE vehicle road trips for some odd reason. Some people can be very aloof.
    - simondotau 4y ago
      It's not odd or aloof, it's a straight-up non sequitur.
vel0city 4y ago
I've taken several road trips in my non-Tesla. I've yet to fail to charge at any location I've tried at the rates my car can charge at.
- sixQuarks 4y ago
  You should play the lottery because you sound like the luckiest person alive.
  - vel0city 4y ago
    I don't think I am. I've never had a failure to charge, but I have seen dispensers out of service at several locations. I do see stations out of service on PlugShare, I just don't go to those. While I have gone on a few road trips, the vast amount of charging has happened at home, so we're really only talking a dozen or so fast charging times over a couple of years. I did encounter a few people who had issues charging while I was on those road trips. It seemed like the BMW i3's were the ones most likely to have a charging issue from the cars I saw. A few people were confused about how to get it started. I saw a Tesla drive up to CCS charger trying to figure out how to get their J1772 adapter to work with the CCS cable (hint: it no work). But the vast majority of the people I encountered on my road trips managed to plug in, potentially negotiate payment if needed, charge their car, and go on their way without any issue. Like lots of things, I think its mostly just that you hear about people sharing their horror stories instead of everyone chirping in every time saying "yup, worked as advertised!" How many people are going to watch and share a video of someone driving up to a CCS dispenser, plug it in, have it charge for ten minutes, and then drive off? Probably not very many. How many people are going to share someone's story about how a charging failure ruined their Christmas? How many videos do people share of people pulling up to a gas station, pumping gas, putting the handle back, and driving off? How many people share videos of people starting fires at gas stations? I tend to see way more videos of fires at gas stations and crazy collisions with the pumps, I guess that's just what everyone's experiences are at gas stations every day! Seriously, while YouTube series like OutOfSpec Reviews shares some of the recent failures and challenges with charging infrastructure, they have tons of videos where you see lots of people pulling up to chargers, charging their cars, and going on their way. They even talk about how they go on lots of road trips with their non-Teslas, and seem to have generally good experiences on average. And they're constantly driving and charging their cars at public chargers, most drivers probably will only use DCFC a handful of times a year.
LinuxBender 4y ago
Will Prowse also a member of HN has made a video on this. [1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATyBdJic8-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATyBdJic8-o

neverminder 4y ago

I have my popcorn ready. Watching the number of EVs increase exponentially faster than the number of chargers. I think right now in UK, where most people are unable to charge at home, there are regions with 1:50 charger to EV ratio which is just comical. Politicians are delusional with their plans to ban the sales of ICE cars in 2030, because it will take forever for the EV infrastructure to catch up.

coldtea 4y ago
Don't worry, the EV EU date ain't gonna happen anytime near the schedule. Those dates are for show, they'll always get pushed into the future...
- neverminder 4y ago
  Of course. But how will the manufacturers handle this uncertainty? Seriously, by setting such dates politicians are acting straight up maliciously. If the EVs are so great, let them take over in the natural course.
  - PoignardAzur 4y ago
    This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer.
    - throw009 4y ago
      As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them.
      - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        > This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer. > As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them. Your response doesn't logically match your intended message. It seems like you intend to disagree with the GP, but your response seems to validate the GP's point. > three current grids worth of wires Even if we assume it is true (it likely will not be because of home storage), by definition "3 current grids worth of wires" would be paid for by consumers buying electricity. Consumers buying electric cars are required to buy even more electricity. As such, with electric cars the externality you're point out is gonna be "paid [disproportionately] by the consumer causing it".
        throw009 4y ago
        This is what a copper mine looks like: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bingham_Canyon_Mine The electric car owners are not thr ones paying the externalities for it either. You can make the case the externalities are smaller but they still exist.
        yazaddaruvala 4y ago
        Ah, yes you are right! If we do need to triple the grid's copper, that would indeed result in unpaid externalities because of poor mining practices. Hopefully, the grid doesn't need to triple because of local storage. If it does, hopefully, the recyleability of copper makes the one time cost of mining and refining a smaller externality.
    - neverminder 4y ago
      As opposed to EVs that have considerably larger manufacturing carbon footprint compared to ICE cars? Also remind me what is the percentage of clean energy those EVs are consuming?
      - tzs 4y ago
        > As opposed to EVs that have considerably larger manufacturing carbon footprint compared to ICE cars? Irrelevant except perhaps for collector cars. For cars that are actually used the manufacturing differences will be swamped by the operational differences. > Also remind me what is the percentage of clean energy those EVs are consuming? Again irrelevant, because even if in a particular place now not much electricity comes from clean energy as they shift to more and more clean energy that improves all the EVs in service there. The ICEs in service will be just as dirty then as they are now. Also, if you do generate electricity from fossil fuels and use that to power cars it can be cleaner than using that fossil fuel directly to power cars. That's because burning it in the car greatly constrains how much equipment you can use to try to reduce or capture the emissions from that burning, because it all has to be small enough and light enough to include in a car. Burning that fuel instead to power generators that feed the grid doesn't suffer that problem. You can put more elaborate emissions control there than you could on a car.
        coldtea 4y ago
        >Irrelevant except perhaps for collector cars. For cars that are actually used the manufacturing differences will be swamped by the operational differences. You'd be surprised. This electricity needs to be generated, and it will hardly be clean for decades. It also needs to be stored in car batteries. And if the energy is "green", in grid "batteries" - plus all the work needed to support the green energy generation, solar panels, huge grid changes, etc. Both of which are nowhere near available, and it's not even certain they can be supported if EVs go to 100% of cars, neither from a manufacturing capacity wise, nor materials wise. And those need to be disposed too. And they'll need replacement during the car's life.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Meanwhile, we're making dates for replacing current cars, and "total EV" and the advent of VR "meta" reality, and cryptocurrency, and GPT-<N> AI, when the reality for the average person is getting more like: https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cpi-report-today-january-2023-inflation/card/to-save-money-maybe-you-should-skip-breakfast-fSd6mz0miaAPhUFb2jgy https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/cpi-report-today-january-20... and like: https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-cover-a-1000-emergency-expense-with-savings.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/19/56percent-of-americans-cant-...
cyberge99 4y ago
The big difference is that most people can charge their EV’s at home. The majority of people charging are on long road trips. You can’t fill an ICE gasoline tank at home.
- TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
  > The big difference is that most people can charge their EV’s at home In EU 50% of people are living in apartments. With push on walkable cities this number will grow. So charging at home won't happen for most, it will be niche feature for rich few who has their own house with its own driveway. > You can’t fill an ICE gasoline tank at home. Give me funnel, cannister and watch me

ytdytvhxgydvhh 4y ago

I’ve taken plenty of road trips in non-Tesla vehicles, many before Tesla even existed. Non-Tesla cars work fine.

simondotau 4y ago
The vagueness in your reply is intriguing. I will assume you’re not being obnoxious and referring to an ICE vehicle. Well, Tesla “existed” in 2004 and its first commercially available vehicle, the Roadster, predates the Nissan Leaf and Mitsubishi i-MiEV. The Tesla Model S wasn’t the first EV, but it’s arguably the first commercially available product capable of a “road trip” by any reasonable definition of the term.
- sixQuarks 4y ago
  Yeah, I think he was referring to ICE vehicle road trips for some odd reason. Some people can be very aloof.
  - simondotau 4y ago
    It's not odd or aloof, it's a straight-up non sequitur.

vel0city 4y ago

I've taken several road trips in my non-Tesla. I've yet to fail to charge at any location I've tried at the rates my car can charge at.

sixQuarks 4y ago
You should play the lottery because you sound like the luckiest person alive.
- vel0city 4y ago
  I don't think I am. I've never had a failure to charge, but I have seen dispensers out of service at several locations. I do see stations out of service on PlugShare, I just don't go to those. While I have gone on a few road trips, the vast amount of charging has happened at home, so we're really only talking a dozen or so fast charging times over a couple of years. I did encounter a few people who had issues charging while I was on those road trips. It seemed like the BMW i3's were the ones most likely to have a charging issue from the cars I saw. A few people were confused about how to get it started. I saw a Tesla drive up to CCS charger trying to figure out how to get their J1772 adapter to work with the CCS cable (hint: it no work). But the vast majority of the people I encountered on my road trips managed to plug in, potentially negotiate payment if needed, charge their car, and go on their way without any issue. Like lots of things, I think its mostly just that you hear about people sharing their horror stories instead of everyone chirping in every time saying "yup, worked as advertised!" How many people are going to watch and share a video of someone driving up to a CCS dispenser, plug it in, have it charge for ten minutes, and then drive off? Probably not very many. How many people are going to share someone's story about how a charging failure ruined their Christmas? How many videos do people share of people pulling up to a gas station, pumping gas, putting the handle back, and driving off? How many people share videos of people starting fires at gas stations? I tend to see way more videos of fires at gas stations and crazy collisions with the pumps, I guess that's just what everyone's experiences are at gas stations every day! Seriously, while YouTube series like OutOfSpec Reviews shares some of the recent failures and challenges with charging infrastructure, they have tons of videos where you see lots of people pulling up to chargers, charging their cars, and going on their way. They even talk about how they go on lots of road trips with their non-Teslas, and seem to have generally good experiences on average. And they're constantly driving and charging their cars at public chargers, most drivers probably will only use DCFC a handful of times a year.

LinuxBender 4y ago

Will Prowse also a member of HN has made a video on this. [1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATyBdJic8-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATyBdJic8-o