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It's funny the next article under "new" is about europe banning gas vehicles. I personally have a long list of problems with banning gas vehicles (I'd say it's

It's funny the next article under "new" is about europe banning gas vehicles. I personally have a long list of problems with banning gas vehicles (I'd say it's insane really), but something that could easily be addressed is how manufacturers are using the shift to electric to enforce vendor lock in and steal personal data. There is absolutely no reason why a precondition of driving an electric car should be having an app, sharing data with the manufacturer, or any of that nonsense. And this "outage" is one of the more obvious consequences. Before we even consider trying to make electric cars more popular, there needs to be open infrastructure and maintenance that doesn't depend on any proprietary crap manufacturers are trying to shove down our throats.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Any billing system will have problems when there is an outage. Gas pump credit card processing goes down too. This is a minor hiccup in the electric transition. If you were charging at a non Supercharger with its own auth and billing mechanism, you most likely didn’t notice. I noticed in the US, but only because I emit my Tesla API call logs from teslamate into a monitoring tool catching the non 200s. If you don’t want to enable data sharing, you can disable it. If you don’t want to enable mobile app functionality or OTA updates, you can remove the cellular module (Tesla specific, I can’t speak to other brands). By 2035 (the new EU combustion vehicle ban agreed upon you mention), an entire generation will have grown up with EVs as the new normal. Right to repair should still be a thing, but that is a distinct issue, not something that should slow the electrification transition until perfect (passenger vehicles are responsible for 61% of CO2 (EDIT: transport) emissions in Europe).
- ttkari 4y ago
  > passenger vehicles are responsible for 61% of CO2 emissions in Europe The EC disagrees with you on this one, quoting 12%. The share is nowhere near 61% even in the US. https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/road-transport-reducing-co2-emissions-vehicles/co2-emission-performance-standards-cars-and-vans_en https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/r...
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    Thank you for catching my typo, I have edited my comment. The citation for the stat is 3:45-3:51 on https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=360761996193121 https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=360761996193121 (“Facebook live with Jan Huitema, European Parliment”).
    - gzer0 4y ago
      The lady speaking is not Jan Huitema. Jan Huitema is the other person on the live. IMO, I would not trust this as a source at all. To each their own.
      - toomuchtodo 4y ago
        Alternate source: https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emissions-from-transport https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emissions-from-... > Road transport constitutes the highest proportion of overall transport emissions — in 2020 it emitted 77% of all EU transport GHGs (including domestic transport and international bunkers).
- akira2501 4y ago
  > Gas pump credit card processing goes down too. Every gas station I pump gas at takes cash, too. > This is a minor hiccup in the electric transition. It portends much worse outcomes if we don't address it. > Right to repair should still be a thing, but that is a distinct issue So, we're going to use the power of government to force a markets hand, but we're going to delay the consumer issues that it is going to generate, until when? And our plan is to use something other than government force to repair that issue? It makes no sense to process these as distinct issues, in particular, because you've failed to articulate how removing right to repair is necessary to achieve "the transition." Why would that be a requirement? We _must_ acquiesce to corporate greed or they won't let us have nice things otherwise? So.. why use the power of government to force the market, then?
  - Aloha 4y ago
    More importantly every gas station is a stand alone billing platform. You're unlikely to have one outage lock out all users in an area - yes they might have to pay cash, but thats it.
    - dghughes 4y ago
      After hurricane Fiona only one gas station brand was operating. They had generators but the thing that caused problems was their computer. They had to keep rebooting it for the pumps to work. It was great to get gas but standing in line for an hour for gas was not fun. All the other stations were closed due to no power or no way to get the pumps to operate if they had power.
  - lelandbatey 4y ago
    In general, we're trying to use the power of the government to force the market to shift away from gas vehicles and towards electric vehicles because climate change, caused in part by combustion engine vehicles, is real and present, and is such a huge, expensive danger that it's clearly worthwhile to make the move. Whatever the payment/repairability downsides that bad actors fit into the electric transition are, they are absolutely nothing compared to worldwide food shortages, mass migration from losing earth to rising sea levels, water shortages, etc. Nobody wants the businesses to take this as a chance to once again hurt consumers and squeeze consumers for ever more money and ever less power. But the businesses are still trying to pull it off anyway. You're right, action against those terrible business practices is warranted. Giving up on avoiding further climate change is not warranted.
- pharrington 4y ago
  Third line of the article - "Some Tesla drivers say they can’t connect to their Powerwall home battery charging system."
- lost_tourist 4y ago
  this speaks more to the danger of monopolies than anything else
  - euroderf 4y ago
    It speaks to the need for governments to knock heads together until charger interop is for realz.
- ttt3ts 4y ago
  Just wondering but what is the lifespan of an EV? How much does it cost to replace the batteries after 10 years? I ask because I fear only the rich will be able to afford cars with such a ban. My first car cost $2k and was a clunker but it was all I could afford to get to school. Even now, in the US, Tesla's get perks like using the car pool lane. Great deal for the rich.
  - toomuchtodo 4y ago
    We don’t know because the batteries last so long [1]. All data points to batteries lasting longer than 10 years, even accounting for degradation. It’s a great deal for the rich because that’s what drives the market, the poor don’t have purchasing power. That’s why margins on tiny econoboxes is garbage compared to other, higher margin vehicles (and why Ford mostly makes trucks and SUVs now). Hand out incentives to those of lesser means to afford lower cost EVs when they arrive in the marketplace. > My first car cost $2k and was a clunker but it was all I could afford to get to school. These days are long gone and aren't coming back, regardless of EV or combustion vehicle. Average price of a used car in the US is ~$29k [2]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/16/business/used-car-prices/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/16/business/used-car-prices/inde...
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - nomel 4y ago
      > These days are long gone and aren't coming back, regardless of EV or combustion vehicle. A quick look on my local craigslist proves otherwise.
    - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
      > These days are long gone and aren't coming back. No they aren't. I live relatively near a major metropolitan area (not an inexpensive one), and there are dozens of sub-$2000 cars for sale at this very instant. You're fearmongering.
rainsford 4y ago
Even if electric vehicle manufacturers like Tesla have been "innovating" here, it's obviously creeping into more traditionally fueled vehicles as well, with DLC, connected features, etc showing up starting with the higher end and working down to cheaper models and brands. From their perspective, it's an untapped market to both charge more money and monetize personal data, although I'd personally like to see it regulated into oblivion.
- version_five 4y ago
  Yes I agree, almost every car electric or not that you buy now is laden with crap that's only there to benefit the manufacturer and screw the buyer. But it's clear that electric represents a chance to screw people from the ground up, cutting out things like independent garages and even gas stations, and giving cover to computerize and log everything. Regulation is necessary, but it's going to be whack a mole trying to prevent vendors ripping off customers, and the automotive already basically has regulatory captured their way into preventing competition. In some respects I think there needs to be less, or at least more sensible regulation, to encourage competition that might actually provide options to people (unfortunately I think most people don't value freedom and are happy to give it up for something shiny, it may be a lost cause)
  - AlexandrB 4y ago
    > ... and giving cover to computerize and log everything. I worry that the interests of car companies and government are well-aligned here and any regulation will be in the direction of making logging of everything mandatory for the benefit of law enforcement.
    - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
      Either facial recognition or license plate recognition (or logging all data about a car) at scale is roughly a similar problem and should be solved together with a constitutional amendment to the Right to Privacy (or something - I'm not a lawyer). Meanwhile, no need to have the data leave the car "for the benefit of law enforcement". I would love if cars' would be GPS connected, or use "smart roads", and have the car self-regulate the speed limit. We have the technology to get rid of speeding tickets, lets just automate this and lets debate better road policies instead. No need to reduce the number of police officers, just get them to instead work on finding my stolen bike! They can also continue to patrol the roads for unsafe driving, for people who mod their cars to no longer respect the speed limit, etc.
twblalock 4y ago
This would be happening even without EVs. BMW is doing it for a lot of their gas cars, and other brands will follow.
- bityard 4y ago
  I agree that it's likely the future, but right _now_ you can buy any number of ICE cars that don't require permission from the manufacturer (in the form of account creation, app usage, and a permanent connection to the cloud) to drive/own, but I'm not aware of any full electric cars that don't.
  - b112 4y ago
    permanent connection to the cloud You sure about that? Ford and GM track you, spy on you relentlessly.
    - edgyquant 4y ago
      If you have a newer model. At the moment you can still buy older models without that, a ban would make this illegal.
    - bityard 4y ago
      I don't know the current status of any particular brand, but I was assuming there are still new ICE cars being made in 2023 that don't require a permanent cloud connection, app, or website in order to own, use, or maintain. If that is not the case, please let me know. But I know for sure that there are no electric cars you can buy that don't require the owner/drive to be a "user" of various IT systems run by the car maker. Which effectively means you can buy the car, but never actually own it.
sangnoir 4y ago
> It's funny the next article under "new" is about europe banning gas vehicles There's nothing inherently "Internet of Shit" about EVs - that's a manufacturer decision that some consumers put up with on some models.
bob1029 4y ago
> There is absolutely no reason why a precondition of driving an electric car should be having an app Aside from the motor/inverter/charge/battery control, I don't see why an electric car needs a computer any more than a gasoline car. In fact, the gasoline car is probably seeing a better uplift from having computerized aids around its prime mover (i.e. EFI makes a massive difference compared to purely-mechanical alternatives).
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
b112 4y ago
There is absolutely no reason why a precondition of driving an electric car should be having an app, sharing data with the manufacturer, or any of that nonsense. I agree, and it is even getting bad with gas cars. GM, Ford, and non-domestics just snarf data, with build in cellular modems, and more. The CEO of Ford was bragging about the revenue, at an earnings meeting, from selling this data. All tracking, data gathering, needs to be made 100% illegal. It is constantly abused, and literally weaponized against consumers, and their democracies.

toomuchtodo 4y ago

Any billing system will have problems when there is an outage. Gas pump credit card processing goes down too. This is a minor hiccup in the electric transition. If you were charging at a non Supercharger with its own auth and billing mechanism, you most likely didn’t notice. I noticed in the US, but only because I emit my Tesla API call logs from teslamate into a monitoring tool catching the non 200s. If you don’t want to enable data sharing, you can disable it. If you don’t want to enable mobile app functionality or OTA updates, you can remove the cellular module (Tesla specific, I can’t speak to other brands). By 2035 (the new EU combustion vehicle ban agreed upon you mention), an entire generation will have grown up with EVs as the new normal. Right to repair should still be a thing, but that is a distinct issue, not something that should slow the electrification transition until perfect (passenger vehicles are responsible for 61% of CO2 (EDIT: transport) emissions in Europe).

ttkari 4y ago
> passenger vehicles are responsible for 61% of CO2 emissions in Europe The EC disagrees with you on this one, quoting 12%. The share is nowhere near 61% even in the US. https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/road-transport-reducing-co2-emissions-vehicles/co2-emission-performance-standards-cars-and-vans_en https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/r...
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Thank you for catching my typo, I have edited my comment. The citation for the stat is 3:45-3:51 on https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=360761996193121 https://www.facebook.com/watch/live/?v=360761996193121 (“Facebook live with Jan Huitema, European Parliment”).
  - gzer0 4y ago
    The lady speaking is not Jan Huitema. Jan Huitema is the other person on the live. IMO, I would not trust this as a source at all. To each their own.
    - toomuchtodo 4y ago
      Alternate source: https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emissions-from-transport https://www.eea.europa.eu/ims/greenhouse-gas-emissions-from-... > Road transport constitutes the highest proportion of overall transport emissions — in 2020 it emitted 77% of all EU transport GHGs (including domestic transport and international bunkers).
akira2501 4y ago
> Gas pump credit card processing goes down too. Every gas station I pump gas at takes cash, too. > This is a minor hiccup in the electric transition. It portends much worse outcomes if we don't address it. > Right to repair should still be a thing, but that is a distinct issue So, we're going to use the power of government to force a markets hand, but we're going to delay the consumer issues that it is going to generate, until when? And our plan is to use something other than government force to repair that issue? It makes no sense to process these as distinct issues, in particular, because you've failed to articulate how removing right to repair is necessary to achieve "the transition." Why would that be a requirement? We _must_ acquiesce to corporate greed or they won't let us have nice things otherwise? So.. why use the power of government to force the market, then?
- Aloha 4y ago
  More importantly every gas station is a stand alone billing platform. You're unlikely to have one outage lock out all users in an area - yes they might have to pay cash, but thats it.
  - dghughes 4y ago
    After hurricane Fiona only one gas station brand was operating. They had generators but the thing that caused problems was their computer. They had to keep rebooting it for the pumps to work. It was great to get gas but standing in line for an hour for gas was not fun. All the other stations were closed due to no power or no way to get the pumps to operate if they had power.
- lelandbatey 4y ago
  In general, we're trying to use the power of the government to force the market to shift away from gas vehicles and towards electric vehicles because climate change, caused in part by combustion engine vehicles, is real and present, and is such a huge, expensive danger that it's clearly worthwhile to make the move. Whatever the payment/repairability downsides that bad actors fit into the electric transition are, they are absolutely nothing compared to worldwide food shortages, mass migration from losing earth to rising sea levels, water shortages, etc. Nobody wants the businesses to take this as a chance to once again hurt consumers and squeeze consumers for ever more money and ever less power. But the businesses are still trying to pull it off anyway. You're right, action against those terrible business practices is warranted. Giving up on avoiding further climate change is not warranted.
pharrington 4y ago
Third line of the article - "Some Tesla drivers say they can’t connect to their Powerwall home battery charging system."
lost_tourist 4y ago
this speaks more to the danger of monopolies than anything else
- euroderf 4y ago
  It speaks to the need for governments to knock heads together until charger interop is for realz.
ttt3ts 4y ago
Just wondering but what is the lifespan of an EV? How much does it cost to replace the batteries after 10 years? I ask because I fear only the rich will be able to afford cars with such a ban. My first car cost $2k and was a clunker but it was all I could afford to get to school. Even now, in the US, Tesla's get perks like using the car pool lane. Great deal for the rich.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  We don’t know because the batteries last so long [1]. All data points to batteries lasting longer than 10 years, even accounting for degradation. It’s a great deal for the rich because that’s what drives the market, the poor don’t have purchasing power. That’s why margins on tiny econoboxes is garbage compared to other, higher margin vehicles (and why Ford mostly makes trucks and SUVs now). Hand out incentives to those of lesser means to afford lower cost EVs when they arrive in the marketplace. > My first car cost $2k and was a clunker but it was all I could afford to get to school. These days are long gone and aren't coming back, regardless of EV or combustion vehicle. Average price of a used car in the US is ~$29k [2]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric-car-batteries-lasting-longer-than-predicted-delays-recycling-programs/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2022/08/01/electric... [2] https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/16/business/used-car-prices/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/16/business/used-car-prices/inde...
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - nomel 4y ago
    > These days are long gone and aren't coming back, regardless of EV or combustion vehicle. A quick look on my local craigslist proves otherwise.
  - kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
    > These days are long gone and aren't coming back. No they aren't. I live relatively near a major metropolitan area (not an inexpensive one), and there are dozens of sub-$2000 cars for sale at this very instant. You're fearmongering.

rainsford 4y ago

Even if electric vehicle manufacturers like Tesla have been "innovating" here, it's obviously creeping into more traditionally fueled vehicles as well, with DLC, connected features, etc showing up starting with the higher end and working down to cheaper models and brands. From their perspective, it's an untapped market to both charge more money and monetize personal data, although I'd personally like to see it regulated into oblivion.

version_five 4y ago
Yes I agree, almost every car electric or not that you buy now is laden with crap that's only there to benefit the manufacturer and screw the buyer. But it's clear that electric represents a chance to screw people from the ground up, cutting out things like independent garages and even gas stations, and giving cover to computerize and log everything. Regulation is necessary, but it's going to be whack a mole trying to prevent vendors ripping off customers, and the automotive already basically has regulatory captured their way into preventing competition. In some respects I think there needs to be less, or at least more sensible regulation, to encourage competition that might actually provide options to people (unfortunately I think most people don't value freedom and are happy to give it up for something shiny, it may be a lost cause)
- AlexandrB 4y ago
  > ... and giving cover to computerize and log everything. I worry that the interests of car companies and government are well-aligned here and any regulation will be in the direction of making logging of everything mandatory for the benefit of law enforcement.
  - yazaddaruvala 4y ago
    Either facial recognition or license plate recognition (or logging all data about a car) at scale is roughly a similar problem and should be solved together with a constitutional amendment to the Right to Privacy (or something - I'm not a lawyer). Meanwhile, no need to have the data leave the car "for the benefit of law enforcement". I would love if cars' would be GPS connected, or use "smart roads", and have the car self-regulate the speed limit. We have the technology to get rid of speeding tickets, lets just automate this and lets debate better road policies instead. No need to reduce the number of police officers, just get them to instead work on finding my stolen bike! They can also continue to patrol the roads for unsafe driving, for people who mod their cars to no longer respect the speed limit, etc.

twblalock 4y ago

This would be happening even without EVs. BMW is doing it for a lot of their gas cars, and other brands will follow.

bityard 4y ago
I agree that it's likely the future, but right _now_ you can buy any number of ICE cars that don't require permission from the manufacturer (in the form of account creation, app usage, and a permanent connection to the cloud) to drive/own, but I'm not aware of any full electric cars that don't.
- b112 4y ago
  permanent connection to the cloud You sure about that? Ford and GM track you, spy on you relentlessly.
  - edgyquant 4y ago
    If you have a newer model. At the moment you can still buy older models without that, a ban would make this illegal.
  - bityard 4y ago
    I don't know the current status of any particular brand, but I was assuming there are still new ICE cars being made in 2023 that don't require a permanent cloud connection, app, or website in order to own, use, or maintain. If that is not the case, please let me know. But I know for sure that there are no electric cars you can buy that don't require the owner/drive to be a "user" of various IT systems run by the car maker. Which effectively means you can buy the car, but never actually own it.

sangnoir 4y ago

> It's funny the next article under "new" is about europe banning gas vehicles There's nothing inherently "Internet of Shit" about EVs - that's a manufacturer decision that some consumers put up with on some models.

bob1029 4y ago

> There is absolutely no reason why a precondition of driving an electric car should be having an app Aside from the motor/inverter/charge/battery control, I don't see why an electric car needs a computer any more than a gasoline car. In fact, the gasoline car is probably seeing a better uplift from having computerized aids around its prime mover (i.e. EFI makes a massive difference compared to purely-mechanical alternatives).

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

b112 4y ago

There is absolutely no reason why a precondition of driving an electric car should be having an app, sharing data with the manufacturer, or any of that nonsense. I agree, and it is even getting bad with gas cars. GM, Ford, and non-domestics just snarf data, with build in cellular modems, and more. The CEO of Ford was bragging about the revenue, at an earnings meeting, from selling this data. All tracking, data gathering, needs to be made 100% illegal. It is constantly abused, and literally weaponized against consumers, and their democracies.