10 ms·

Tesla goes down across Europe leaving some drivers unable to charge cars

67 points by neverminder 4y ago

Laaas 4y ago
Why does it need to contact a central server anyway? Seems like a huge issue.
- kurthr 4y ago
  It's billing for the SuperChargers.
  - mattbee 4y ago
    The UK's motorway charging network lose their connections all the time, but they tend to fail open, i.e. charge for free as long as it's not an electrical fault. It seems like a very petty upside to change that.
    - nickff 4y ago
      The problem is that 'failing free' would incentivize people to disrupt charger communications; if you doubt that this is a real issue, look at the article posted earlier on HN, about people stealing Kias and Hyundais.
      - krisoft 4y ago
        > The problem is that 'failing free' would incentivize people to disrupt charger communications Can’t you just log locally on the charger the transactions? Once the connection is restored and if there are dishonest charges you can just pursue them the same way a petrol station would pursue those who fill-and-dash. Or even better. Can’t the car download a certificate from the central server when it is still up which is signed with the private key of tesla and it contains what level of service the vehicle is subscribed to and an expiry date? And then the charger can check the validity even without a network connection.
        filoleg 4y ago
        > Can’t the car download a certificate from the central server when it is still up which is signed with the private key of tesla and it contains what level of service the vehicle is subscribed to and an expiry date? There is no "service" for charging, it is just like with ICE cars at a gas station. You fill up your car, and then you get charged for however much you filled up.
        simfree 4y ago
        Chargepoint has plenty of chargers that fail to store and forward payments.
        krisoft 4y ago
        > There is no "service" for charging, it is just like with ICE cars at a gas station. You fill up your car, and then you get charged for however much you filled up. It sounds like you don’t need to swipe your card every time. The system has your payment details on file to pay. That is what the certificate would attest to.
      - mattbee 4y ago
        Ha, surely someone who has driven a £20,000+ car to a surveilled remote location isn't going to bring ... what, a 4G radio jammer? Wire cutters? Risking electrocution? To save £5-20 on a top-up? While they wait 30-60 minutes for the charge to complete? I had assumed they failed open because the installers have more of an incentive to build trust with drivers than to avoid a little extra revenue loss for a few days?
      - pcdevils 4y ago
        Hard to relate those issues. Most charging ports are in public areas and in the time it takes for the connection to restore and billing to kick in probably isn't going to be long enough to charge your vehicle up much. While the Kia issue boils down to the US failing to follow the UK, Canada and other regions in using regulation to make immobilisers mandatory. The subsequent penny pinching that took place producing cars with security features that have been around since the early 90s, as they were treated as a premium feature in the US. That combined with them opting for a cheap ignition column gave them their current predicament as even basic steering lock functionality is dead.
      - Arrath 4y ago
        Can we let the fear of hypothetical bad actors worsen our everyday lives?
      - toast0 4y ago
        Credit card systems have offline authentication, where a payment terminal can be configured to accept payments under some threshold for a while and send them in a batch later. It's far from perfect, there's lots of reasons online authentication is preferred; but it allows for business to continue with less friction than requiring cash and someone or something to handle it. It would make sense to do something similar for a charging network. Worst case, it can't be too hard to track down the owner of a vehicle by its VIN.
- Lammy 4y ago
  So they can combine the known geolocation of every charging station with the acceleration+steering data stored in the car to re-create any Tesla's exact journey if need be: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dutch-forensic-lab-says-it-has-decoded-teslas-driving-data-2021-10-21/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dutch-... “The NFI said the decrypted data showed Tesla vehicles store information about the operation of its driver assistance system, known as Autopilot. The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system
  - Tanjreeve 4y ago
    So the user's are now suffering for the sake of neurotic data collection.
    - dns_snek 4y ago
      I'm actually somewhat surprised that they aren't streaming sensor data including GPS location directly to Tesla at all times.
version_five 4y ago
It's funny the next article under "new" is about europe banning gas vehicles. I personally have a long list of problems with banning gas vehicles (I'd say it's insane really), but something that could easily be addressed is how manufacturers are using the shift to electric to enforce vendor lock in and steal personal data. There is absolutely no reason why a precondition of driving an electric car should be having an app, sharing data with the manufacturer, or any of that nonsense. And this "outage" is one of the more obvious consequences. Before we even consider trying to make electric cars more popular, there needs to be open infrastructure and maintenance that doesn't depend on any proprietary crap manufacturers are trying to shove down our throats.
- toomuchtodo 4y ago
  Any billing system will have problems when there is an outage. Gas pump credit card processing goes down too. This is a minor hiccup in the electric transition. If you were charging at a non Supercharger with its own auth and billing mechanism, you most likely didn’t notice. I noticed in the US, but only because I emit my Tesla API call logs from teslamate into a monitoring tool catching the non 200s. If you don’t want to enable data sharing, you can disable it. If you don’t want to enable mobile app functionality or OTA updates, you can remove the cellular module (Tesla specific, I can’t speak to other brands). By 2035 (the new EU combustion vehicle ban agreed upon you mention), an entire generation will have grown up with EVs as the new normal. Right to repair should still be a thing, but that is a distinct issue, not something that should slow the electrification transition until perfect (passenger vehicles are responsible for 61% of CO2 (EDIT: transport) emissions in Europe).
  - ttkari 4y ago
    > passenger vehicles are responsible for 61% of CO2 emissions in Europe The EC disagrees with you on this one, quoting 12%. The share is nowhere near 61% even in the US. https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/road-transport-reducing-co2-emissions-vehicles/co2-emission-performance-standards-cars-and-vans_en https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/r...
jeroenhd 4y ago
Why can't Tesla owners plug in their car at home because Tesla's online stuff is broken? Do their cars really need internet access to charge?
- kurthr 4y ago
  You can, you just can't do billing on SuperChargers. Home charging works... cars work, but it's like credit cards didn't work at the gas station and there was nobody there to take cash.
  - ThunderSizzle 4y ago
    Typically if a gas station isn't accepting payment, I can drive to the one next door. I've done that before, but it's very rare unless if Visa or Mastercard is having issues (which is pretty rare, but affects much more than just gas).
    - clouddrover 4y ago
      > Typically if a gas station isn't accepting payment, I can drive to the one next door. You can do the same in Europe with EVs. Europe standardised on CCS Type 2 Combo for EV charging so you're not locked into one charging network. All brands of DC fast charger can charge all brands of EV, exactly as it should be.
      - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        That's some wild theory. In my experience as an BEV owner (Skoda Enyaq iv80) it is highly selective and having same plug means nothing if there are incompatible software stacks inside. Some chargers are working fine. Ionity, BP (ironic) Some will not initiate charging because registration email/login/payment in their app does not work. (Freshmile in France, some Swedish one in Greece whose name I forget did not sent an activation email) Some chargers just straight out doesn't like your car, because reasons. "Find another charger" you will be told. (Fortiza) Some chargers are just broken, but you can't tell until you arrive. (Another Freshmile in France)
sixQuarks 4y ago
So Tesla goes down momentarily, it's huge news. Meanwhile, try taking a road trip with a non-Tesla vehicle. You will quickly see that more than half the chargers are broken, and the other half charge at slow rates, and half the charger locations are off or not even there.
- neverminder 4y ago
  I have my popcorn ready. Watching the number of EVs increase exponentially faster than the number of chargers. I think right now in UK, where most people are unable to charge at home, there are regions with 1:50 charger to EV ratio which is just comical. Politicians are delusional with their plans to ban the sales of ICE cars in 2030, because it will take forever for the EV infrastructure to catch up.
  - coldtea 4y ago
    Don't worry, the EV EU date ain't gonna happen anytime near the schedule. Those dates are for show, they'll always get pushed into the future...
    - neverminder 4y ago
      Of course. But how will the manufacturers handle this uncertainty? Seriously, by setting such dates politicians are acting straight up maliciously. If the EVs are so great, let them take over in the natural course.
      - PoignardAzur 4y ago
        This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer.
        throw009 4y ago
        As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them.
batch12 4y ago
Would have been smarter to fail open in a situation like this and get the good press for eating the costs.
- KerrAvon 4y ago
  Musk is hostile to any form of press at this point. Tesla really needs a new leadership team.
  - hcurtiss 4y ago
    Are those two sentences somehow connected or related?
user3939382 4y ago
I want a WW2 Willy’s Jeep that I can easily see/fix in an emergency.
- kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
  I have a '46 Dodge WC that can be fixed with an adjustable wrench and a hammer & will run on even the crappiest fuel (5.1:1 compression ratio). I can crank start it, too. It's an old farm truck, and cost less than $2500 (albeit over a decade ago). Buy 'em while you can.
- bmitc 4y ago
  I personally want a modern car that won't gravely injure me in even the most modest of car accidents but one that doesn't have inane software-controlled lockout features.
  - bsagdiyev 4y ago
    That was the logic we used, bought an Explorer ST instead of a BMW since they've shown the desire to charge to unlock stuff already in the car. I'm sure Ford will do it at some point if it takes off but so far they haven't. Now the connected features on the car I'm not a huge fan of but they're not limiting thankfully.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
johnea 4y ago
[flagged]

67 points by neverminder 4y ago

Laaas 4y ago

Why does it need to contact a central server anyway? Seems like a huge issue.

kurthr 4y ago
It's billing for the SuperChargers.
- mattbee 4y ago
  The UK's motorway charging network lose their connections all the time, but they tend to fail open, i.e. charge for free as long as it's not an electrical fault. It seems like a very petty upside to change that.
  - nickff 4y ago
    The problem is that 'failing free' would incentivize people to disrupt charger communications; if you doubt that this is a real issue, look at the article posted earlier on HN, about people stealing Kias and Hyundais.
    - krisoft 4y ago
      > The problem is that 'failing free' would incentivize people to disrupt charger communications Can’t you just log locally on the charger the transactions? Once the connection is restored and if there are dishonest charges you can just pursue them the same way a petrol station would pursue those who fill-and-dash. Or even better. Can’t the car download a certificate from the central server when it is still up which is signed with the private key of tesla and it contains what level of service the vehicle is subscribed to and an expiry date? And then the charger can check the validity even without a network connection.
      - filoleg 4y ago
        > Can’t the car download a certificate from the central server when it is still up which is signed with the private key of tesla and it contains what level of service the vehicle is subscribed to and an expiry date? There is no "service" for charging, it is just like with ICE cars at a gas station. You fill up your car, and then you get charged for however much you filled up.
        simfree 4y ago
        Chargepoint has plenty of chargers that fail to store and forward payments.
        krisoft 4y ago
        > There is no "service" for charging, it is just like with ICE cars at a gas station. You fill up your car, and then you get charged for however much you filled up. It sounds like you don’t need to swipe your card every time. The system has your payment details on file to pay. That is what the certificate would attest to.
    - mattbee 4y ago
      Ha, surely someone who has driven a £20,000+ car to a surveilled remote location isn't going to bring ... what, a 4G radio jammer? Wire cutters? Risking electrocution? To save £5-20 on a top-up? While they wait 30-60 minutes for the charge to complete? I had assumed they failed open because the installers have more of an incentive to build trust with drivers than to avoid a little extra revenue loss for a few days?
    - pcdevils 4y ago
      Hard to relate those issues. Most charging ports are in public areas and in the time it takes for the connection to restore and billing to kick in probably isn't going to be long enough to charge your vehicle up much. While the Kia issue boils down to the US failing to follow the UK, Canada and other regions in using regulation to make immobilisers mandatory. The subsequent penny pinching that took place producing cars with security features that have been around since the early 90s, as they were treated as a premium feature in the US. That combined with them opting for a cheap ignition column gave them their current predicament as even basic steering lock functionality is dead.
    - Arrath 4y ago
      Can we let the fear of hypothetical bad actors worsen our everyday lives?
    - toast0 4y ago
      Credit card systems have offline authentication, where a payment terminal can be configured to accept payments under some threshold for a while and send them in a batch later. It's far from perfect, there's lots of reasons online authentication is preferred; but it allows for business to continue with less friction than requiring cash and someone or something to handle it. It would make sense to do something similar for a charging network. Worst case, it can't be too hard to track down the owner of a vehicle by its VIN.
Lammy 4y ago
So they can combine the known geolocation of every charging station with the acceleration+steering data stored in the car to re-create any Tesla's exact journey if need be: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dutch-forensic-lab-says-it-has-decoded-teslas-driving-data-2021-10-21/ https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/dutch-... “The NFI said the decrypted data showed Tesla vehicles store information about the operation of its driver assistance system, known as Autopilot. The vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage, and depending on how the vehicle is used, that data can be stored for over a year.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_reckoning https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system
- Tanjreeve 4y ago
  So the user's are now suffering for the sake of neurotic data collection.
  - dns_snek 4y ago
    I'm actually somewhat surprised that they aren't streaming sensor data including GPS location directly to Tesla at all times.

version_five 4y ago

It's funny the next article under "new" is about europe banning gas vehicles. I personally have a long list of problems with banning gas vehicles (I'd say it's insane really), but something that could easily be addressed is how manufacturers are using the shift to electric to enforce vendor lock in and steal personal data. There is absolutely no reason why a precondition of driving an electric car should be having an app, sharing data with the manufacturer, or any of that nonsense. And this "outage" is one of the more obvious consequences. Before we even consider trying to make electric cars more popular, there needs to be open infrastructure and maintenance that doesn't depend on any proprietary crap manufacturers are trying to shove down our throats.

toomuchtodo 4y ago
Any billing system will have problems when there is an outage. Gas pump credit card processing goes down too. This is a minor hiccup in the electric transition. If you were charging at a non Supercharger with its own auth and billing mechanism, you most likely didn’t notice. I noticed in the US, but only because I emit my Tesla API call logs from teslamate into a monitoring tool catching the non 200s. If you don’t want to enable data sharing, you can disable it. If you don’t want to enable mobile app functionality or OTA updates, you can remove the cellular module (Tesla specific, I can’t speak to other brands). By 2035 (the new EU combustion vehicle ban agreed upon you mention), an entire generation will have grown up with EVs as the new normal. Right to repair should still be a thing, but that is a distinct issue, not something that should slow the electrification transition until perfect (passenger vehicles are responsible for 61% of CO2 (EDIT: transport) emissions in Europe).
- ttkari 4y ago
  > passenger vehicles are responsible for 61% of CO2 emissions in Europe The EC disagrees with you on this one, quoting 12%. The share is nowhere near 61% even in the US. https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/road-transport-reducing-co2-emissions-vehicles/co2-emission-performance-standards-cars-and-vans_en https://climate.ec.europa.eu/eu-action/transport-emissions/r...

jeroenhd 4y ago

Why can't Tesla owners plug in their car at home because Tesla's online stuff is broken? Do their cars really need internet access to charge?

kurthr 4y ago
You can, you just can't do billing on SuperChargers. Home charging works... cars work, but it's like credit cards didn't work at the gas station and there was nobody there to take cash.
- ThunderSizzle 4y ago
  Typically if a gas station isn't accepting payment, I can drive to the one next door. I've done that before, but it's very rare unless if Visa or Mastercard is having issues (which is pretty rare, but affects much more than just gas).
  - clouddrover 4y ago
    > Typically if a gas station isn't accepting payment, I can drive to the one next door. You can do the same in Europe with EVs. Europe standardised on CCS Type 2 Combo for EV charging so you're not locked into one charging network. All brands of DC fast charger can charge all brands of EV, exactly as it should be.
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      That's some wild theory. In my experience as an BEV owner (Skoda Enyaq iv80) it is highly selective and having same plug means nothing if there are incompatible software stacks inside. Some chargers are working fine. Ionity, BP (ironic) Some will not initiate charging because registration email/login/payment in their app does not work. (Freshmile in France, some Swedish one in Greece whose name I forget did not sent an activation email) Some chargers just straight out doesn't like your car, because reasons. "Find another charger" you will be told. (Fortiza) Some chargers are just broken, but you can't tell until you arrive. (Another Freshmile in France)

sixQuarks 4y ago

So Tesla goes down momentarily, it's huge news. Meanwhile, try taking a road trip with a non-Tesla vehicle. You will quickly see that more than half the chargers are broken, and the other half charge at slow rates, and half the charger locations are off or not even there.

neverminder 4y ago
I have my popcorn ready. Watching the number of EVs increase exponentially faster than the number of chargers. I think right now in UK, where most people are unable to charge at home, there are regions with 1:50 charger to EV ratio which is just comical. Politicians are delusional with their plans to ban the sales of ICE cars in 2030, because it will take forever for the EV infrastructure to catch up.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Don't worry, the EV EU date ain't gonna happen anytime near the schedule. Those dates are for show, they'll always get pushed into the future...
  - neverminder 4y ago
    Of course. But how will the manufacturers handle this uncertainty? Seriously, by setting such dates politicians are acting straight up maliciously. If the EVs are so great, let them take over in the natural course.
    - PoignardAzur 4y ago
      This is obviously ignoring that fossil fuel vehicles have strong externalities which aren't paid by the consumer.
      - throw009 4y ago
        As do electric vehicles which requires three current grids worth of wires to power them.

batch12 4y ago

Would have been smarter to fail open in a situation like this and get the good press for eating the costs.

KerrAvon 4y ago
Musk is hostile to any form of press at this point. Tesla really needs a new leadership team.
- hcurtiss 4y ago
  Are those two sentences somehow connected or related?

user3939382 4y ago

I want a WW2 Willy’s Jeep that I can easily see/fix in an emergency.

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS 4y ago
I have a '46 Dodge WC that can be fixed with an adjustable wrench and a hammer & will run on even the crappiest fuel (5.1:1 compression ratio). I can crank start it, too. It's an old farm truck, and cost less than $2500 (albeit over a decade ago). Buy 'em while you can.
bmitc 4y ago
I personally want a modern car that won't gravely injure me in even the most modest of car accidents but one that doesn't have inane software-controlled lockout features.
- bsagdiyev 4y ago
  That was the logic we used, bought an Explorer ST instead of a BMW since they've shown the desire to charge to unlock stuff already in the car. I'm sure Ford will do it at some point if it takes off but so far they haven't. Now the connected features on the car I'm not a huge fan of but they're not limiting thankfully.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

johnea 4y ago

[flagged]