4 ms·

> I know experts make mistakes This is where you're wrong. Experts don't make mistakes in situations like this. They consistently [0] downplay [1] every [2] en

by yunwal 4y ago

> I know experts make mistakes This is where you're wrong. Experts don't make mistakes in situations like this. They consistently [0] downplay [1] every [2] environmental [3] disaster [4] and withhold information from neutral parties until it loses the public's attention. When are we going to stop acting like this isn't standard operating procedure? When are we going to assume that this is default behavior of people responsible for disasters? [0] - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-toxic-cover-up/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/a-toxic-cover-up/ [1] - https://www.history.com/news/chernobyl-disaster-coverup https://www.history.com/news/chernobyl-disaster-coverup [2] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-oil-rig-leak-idUSTRE6430AR20100520 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-oil-rig-leak-idUSTRE6430A... [3] - https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/flint-water-crisis/six-more-offcials-charged-flint-water-crisis-alleged-coverup-n619811 https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/flint-water-crisis/six-mor... [4] - https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/05/california-finds-pge-equipment-responsible-for-massive-dixie-fire-.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/05/california-finds-pge-equipme...

shadowgovt 4y ago
If you have specific evidence of what exposure to (burned, trace amounts of) vinyl chloride might do, or its denatured byproducts (besides the HCL, which probably killed some fish), feel free to share them. An anecdote about dead chickens isn't that without a causal link (and the current rampant bird flu is a far more likely explanation). "We don't really know" is simply false. This isn't a mystery chemical; we've been working with the stuff since 1835, we've spilled it into the environment numerous times, and we are decently familiar with it enough that even given experts with vested interests will downplay the risks, I have no reason to believe panic is in order. It's not safe to swim in, I wouldn't spread it on toast, but it's a well-known HAZMAT story with a well-understood mitigation. While NPR reported there were concerns from citizens, they also went looking for people who would provide causes for concern in their reporting and found none: not only from the rail company (where you wouldn't expect to find them), but from anywhere. The largest concerns expressed were from an OSU professor that said to wash surfaces and look out for low-lying areas. Plenty of chemical experts would have plenty to gain contradicting the party line if the party line were untrue; the fact we don't see them really should indicate in this case that there's (no pun intended) no fire here. What is your goal in this exchange?
- yunwal 4y ago
  > This isn't a mystery chemical; we've been working with the stuff since 1835, we've spilled it into the environment numerous times It has never been burned at anywhere near this quantity. There are other chemicals that can react with it. Your strawmanning isn't winning you any points here. > What is your goal... I would like for these coverups to lose their effectiveness. I'd like for executives that gamble with human lives and the environment to be held responsible. I would like politicians and media organizations that repeatedly enable them to lose credibility. I would like the concerns of railroad workers to be taken seriously. I'd like for journalists to not be wrongfully arrested for doing their jobs. I'd like for the safety precautions for carrying hazardous materials to be enforced. I'd like to have institutions that I can more or less trust to tell me the truth.
  - shadowgovt 4y ago
    Then I'm sorry because this isn't the disaster you're hoping for. But take heart, people continue to use technology so another disaster will certainly come along. > It has never been burned at anywhere near this quantity I'm curious your source for that assertion. https://www.csb.gov/formosa-plastics-vinyl-chloride-explosion/ https://www.csb.gov/formosa-plastics-vinyl-chloride-explosio...

by yunwal 4y ago

shadowgovt 4y ago

If you have specific evidence of what exposure to (burned, trace amounts of) vinyl chloride might do, or its denatured byproducts (besides the HCL, which probably killed some fish), feel free to share them. An anecdote about dead chickens isn't that without a causal link (and the current rampant bird flu is a far more likely explanation). "We don't really know" is simply false. This isn't a mystery chemical; we've been working with the stuff since 1835, we've spilled it into the environment numerous times, and we are decently familiar with it enough that even given experts with vested interests will downplay the risks, I have no reason to believe panic is in order. It's not safe to swim in, I wouldn't spread it on toast, but it's a well-known HAZMAT story with a well-understood mitigation. While NPR reported there were concerns from citizens, they also went looking for people who would provide causes for concern in their reporting and found none: not only from the rail company (where you wouldn't expect to find them), but from anywhere. The largest concerns expressed were from an OSU professor that said to wash surfaces and look out for low-lying areas. Plenty of chemical experts would have plenty to gain contradicting the party line if the party line were untrue; the fact we don't see them really should indicate in this case that there's (no pun intended) no fire here. What is your goal in this exchange?

yunwal 4y ago
> This isn't a mystery chemical; we've been working with the stuff since 1835, we've spilled it into the environment numerous times It has never been burned at anywhere near this quantity. There are other chemicals that can react with it. Your strawmanning isn't winning you any points here. > What is your goal... I would like for these coverups to lose their effectiveness. I'd like for executives that gamble with human lives and the environment to be held responsible. I would like politicians and media organizations that repeatedly enable them to lose credibility. I would like the concerns of railroad workers to be taken seriously. I'd like for journalists to not be wrongfully arrested for doing their jobs. I'd like for the safety precautions for carrying hazardous materials to be enforced. I'd like to have institutions that I can more or less trust to tell me the truth.
- shadowgovt 4y ago
  Then I'm sorry because this isn't the disaster you're hoping for. But take heart, people continue to use technology so another disaster will certainly come along. > It has never been burned at anywhere near this quantity I'm curious your source for that assertion. https://www.csb.gov/formosa-plastics-vinyl-chloride-explosion/ https://www.csb.gov/formosa-plastics-vinyl-chloride-explosio...