5 ms·

I know two devs. One changed 3 jobs in his whole career of 20 years and was genuinely interested in what he does, for whom he does it, which tools he uses and

by zmxz 4y ago

I know two devs. One changed 3 jobs in his whole career of 20 years and was genuinely interested in what he does, for whom he does it, which tools he uses and how to understand better the technology that's needed to achieve the goal. He is great to talk to, listens and never tries to interrupt with "but what about <technology X>, why didn't you use <latest serverless thingy>, who the f* is the ID-10-T that made you learn <language that does the job and people know it>", just in order to give himself credibility. Doesn't use popular social media. The other one always talked at people, knew all the buzzwords and changed 1 job every 8 - 12 months in the span of his 10 year long career, and never failed to mention it in social gatherings as if it's something to be proud of. His Twitter, LinkedIn, StackOverflow (with low score of answers and badly written questions that are borderline insulting when told to provide sufficient info), Facebook and TikTok are regularly updated multiple times in a day, mostly with phrases such as "In order to grow, you can only do so with an awesome team like <array of names from LinkedIn with similar social presence>" or other motivational phrases. He never skips the chance to mention that there exists choice of tech that does the job better and it's the one he happens to use, being the latest and shiniest in the toolbox of frameworks, SaaS or similar tools. Interactions with him are multiplayer monologue and most his social circle is similar - people who talk about themselves and how great they are, backed up with obscure, witty, wannabe-nerd words used for frameworks/libs/SaaS in their toolbox. One of these two lost the job and blames the world and big tech. The other one kept it. And will keep it for forseeable future. There is work to be done and there are people to do it. One of these two is a rare find in world of engineering, the other is common occurrence. One of these two is economically viable while the other incurs loss. As unpopular my comment will get, I'll let the downvoter (or upvoter) guess who kept the job and which person sounds as a more pleasant co-worker.

theandrewbailey 4y ago
I'm guessing the first one lost his job, because I'm a pessimist.
- zmxz 4y ago
  First one kept the job. > because I'm a pessimist Shoot for the worst, hope for the best type? :)
  - theandrewbailey 4y ago
    No, more like: I've had too many red pills.
andrewmcwatters 4y ago
So, the nice guy you're talking about had job pay increases exceeding inflation at each 3 jobs over 20 years? OK. The second person sounds insufferable, but you're also indirectly preaching the praises of corporate loyalty that have been outdated and out of touch for over 50 years.
- taylodl 4y ago
  It's not about corporate loyalty - it's about passion to do good work without blaming others (colleagues, tech stack, corporate environment) for why you suck. Look, I've been creating software for 40 years now in a wide variety of industries and many, many tech stacks. The people passionate about doing good work simply do good work. That other guy? He's all bluster. They eventually wash out. Nowadays their strategy is to get hired at a FAANG and have earned enough to retire by the time they wash out. It's really pathetic and frankly I say good riddance to those people. I've seen many of them come and go over the years and the team is almost as better off after they leave. Meanwhile, if you're solving real problems real people are having and they're willing to pay for them to be solved then you'll remain employed.
  - zmxz 4y ago
    > It's not about corporate loyalty - it's about passion to do good work without blaming others (colleagues, tech stack, corporate environment) for why you suck. This. I noticed many people talking about corporate loyalty, but you sir made my day, this was precisely my point :) I wrote a wall of text trying to explain what you explained in that one simple sentence, your experience is visible. Thank you and have a great day!
  - andrewmcwatters 4y ago
    You could have just said that. It distracts from your message. I've worked at too many companies where hack job losers stuck around 5, 10, 15 years, insulating themselves with low enough pay and job security by not sticking out, keeping their head down, and creating an environment that breeds passive leeches. These lifers would create enough mess that would eventually be cleaned up by people who could read a man page instead of a Medium article and who eventually left for greener pastures because they too were interested in creating good work. You can be technically excellent and have enough brains to pay attention to the CPI-W. Records profits from corporates aren't for you and me, they're for the businesses themselves.
glitchc 4y ago
So who lost their job? Is it the first or the second?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
mattgreenrocks 4y ago
The irony is dev #2 projects a textbook definition of 'passion' with their public displays of knowledge, name-dropping, and fancy job at an elite institution. But when circumstances change, the house of cards falls over. They'd staked their identity on something brittle: the appearance of an elite tech worker with the proper taste who is a member of the Inner Ring (per CS Lewis).
extr 4y ago
How dramatic! If only the world worked in such a just and fair way. From what I've seen of the recent layoffs, it was totally uncorrelated to how virtuous your career has been. People got laid off from Google that had been there like 15 years. Likewise people get huge payouts from startups after joining the bandwagon at just the right time. The whole thing seems like a false dichotomy. Most people I know (including myself) fit into neither category. Some job hops, with stretches of stability. Keeping up with the latest tech/trends, but mostly realistic about applicability to their day to day problems. And someone being annoying at parties is hardly relevant. You'll find those people everywhere.
- zmxz 4y ago
  In the story I posted, there's an expert who's diligent, disciplined and aware of the area his expertise is valuable. The other one has none of that. First one never worked for FAANG, the other one aimed only for that level. One lost the job, the other kept it. There is a deeper meaning to the story, it's not for no reason that the first one managed to get through 2 economic crises, pandemic and yet again - round of layoffs. Take what you will from the story, but maybe it's not as shallow story as it seems.
fermentation 4y ago
Sure the second person sounds awful to be around, but correlating this with corporate loyalty is disgusting especially in times like these.
- zmxz 4y ago
  I'm sorry, but if I implied anything about loyalty then I apologize. I don't think loyalty or trust are needed in an environment where all parties adhere to agreement(s) and have the process that lets everyone win.
  - mattgreenrocks 4y ago
    The current zeitgeist is zero sum in thinking, believing that there can only be one winner in an employment arrangement. And if they aren’t winning, then it is inherently exploitative. This can be seen on both sides of the employer/employee relationship, and seems to be a bit of a prisoners dilemma, where the negative vibes of one side incite the other and the animosity intensifies. IMO: more people should consult or work for themselves. You learn a lot in a short amount of time and get a good understanding for the pros and cons of salaried employment.
ThalesX 4y ago
I've recently been talking to a friend working at a large multinational for the last 10 years. They called him into office and presented him with a wooden plank with the number 10 inscribed on it. It almost pushed him to the edge to quit. Almost. Meanwhile, I've spent the last 10 years out in the world, helping companies grow, running my own stuff, learning, traveling, exposing myself to new technologies. I love it. I also make a lot more money than he does. I understand where you're coming from, but the ability to pivot doesn't end with a downturn, and after all is said and done, it depends on the individual. I'd grow bored out of my mind working for 10 years on the same thing, regardless of compensation.
Yoric 4y ago
I may be misreading your post, but if I'm not, you seem to be claiming that people who got laid off had it coming?
galaxyLogic 4y ago
I think this maps roughly to the idea of some people being "introverts" and others "extroverts". Extroverts are good at selling themselves, they enjoy that activity. Introverts are interested in how to do good work, not in selling themselves. They don't like to go to job interviews, because that to them is not solving the interesting problems they are working on.

by zmxz 4y ago

theandrewbailey 4y ago

I'm guessing the first one lost his job, because I'm a pessimist.

zmxz 4y ago
First one kept the job. > because I'm a pessimist Shoot for the worst, hope for the best type? :)
- theandrewbailey 4y ago
  No, more like: I've had too many red pills.

andrewmcwatters 4y ago

So, the nice guy you're talking about had job pay increases exceeding inflation at each 3 jobs over 20 years? OK. The second person sounds insufferable, but you're also indirectly preaching the praises of corporate loyalty that have been outdated and out of touch for over 50 years.

taylodl 4y ago
It's not about corporate loyalty - it's about passion to do good work without blaming others (colleagues, tech stack, corporate environment) for why you suck. Look, I've been creating software for 40 years now in a wide variety of industries and many, many tech stacks. The people passionate about doing good work simply do good work. That other guy? He's all bluster. They eventually wash out. Nowadays their strategy is to get hired at a FAANG and have earned enough to retire by the time they wash out. It's really pathetic and frankly I say good riddance to those people. I've seen many of them come and go over the years and the team is almost as better off after they leave. Meanwhile, if you're solving real problems real people are having and they're willing to pay for them to be solved then you'll remain employed.
- zmxz 4y ago
  > It's not about corporate loyalty - it's about passion to do good work without blaming others (colleagues, tech stack, corporate environment) for why you suck. This. I noticed many people talking about corporate loyalty, but you sir made my day, this was precisely my point :) I wrote a wall of text trying to explain what you explained in that one simple sentence, your experience is visible. Thank you and have a great day!
- andrewmcwatters 4y ago
  You could have just said that. It distracts from your message. I've worked at too many companies where hack job losers stuck around 5, 10, 15 years, insulating themselves with low enough pay and job security by not sticking out, keeping their head down, and creating an environment that breeds passive leeches. These lifers would create enough mess that would eventually be cleaned up by people who could read a man page instead of a Medium article and who eventually left for greener pastures because they too were interested in creating good work. You can be technically excellent and have enough brains to pay attention to the CPI-W. Records profits from corporates aren't for you and me, they're for the businesses themselves.

glitchc 4y ago

So who lost their job? Is it the first or the second?

deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

mattgreenrocks 4y ago

The irony is dev #2 projects a textbook definition of 'passion' with their public displays of knowledge, name-dropping, and fancy job at an elite institution. But when circumstances change, the house of cards falls over. They'd staked their identity on something brittle: the appearance of an elite tech worker with the proper taste who is a member of the Inner Ring (per CS Lewis).

extr 4y ago

How dramatic! If only the world worked in such a just and fair way. From what I've seen of the recent layoffs, it was totally uncorrelated to how virtuous your career has been. People got laid off from Google that had been there like 15 years. Likewise people get huge payouts from startups after joining the bandwagon at just the right time. The whole thing seems like a false dichotomy. Most people I know (including myself) fit into neither category. Some job hops, with stretches of stability. Keeping up with the latest tech/trends, but mostly realistic about applicability to their day to day problems. And someone being annoying at parties is hardly relevant. You'll find those people everywhere.

zmxz 4y ago
In the story I posted, there's an expert who's diligent, disciplined and aware of the area his expertise is valuable. The other one has none of that. First one never worked for FAANG, the other one aimed only for that level. One lost the job, the other kept it. There is a deeper meaning to the story, it's not for no reason that the first one managed to get through 2 economic crises, pandemic and yet again - round of layoffs. Take what you will from the story, but maybe it's not as shallow story as it seems.

fermentation 4y ago

Sure the second person sounds awful to be around, but correlating this with corporate loyalty is disgusting especially in times like these.

zmxz 4y ago
I'm sorry, but if I implied anything about loyalty then I apologize. I don't think loyalty or trust are needed in an environment where all parties adhere to agreement(s) and have the process that lets everyone win.
- mattgreenrocks 4y ago
  The current zeitgeist is zero sum in thinking, believing that there can only be one winner in an employment arrangement. And if they aren’t winning, then it is inherently exploitative. This can be seen on both sides of the employer/employee relationship, and seems to be a bit of a prisoners dilemma, where the negative vibes of one side incite the other and the animosity intensifies. IMO: more people should consult or work for themselves. You learn a lot in a short amount of time and get a good understanding for the pros and cons of salaried employment.

ThalesX 4y ago

I've recently been talking to a friend working at a large multinational for the last 10 years. They called him into office and presented him with a wooden plank with the number 10 inscribed on it. It almost pushed him to the edge to quit. Almost. Meanwhile, I've spent the last 10 years out in the world, helping companies grow, running my own stuff, learning, traveling, exposing myself to new technologies. I love it. I also make a lot more money than he does. I understand where you're coming from, but the ability to pivot doesn't end with a downturn, and after all is said and done, it depends on the individual. I'd grow bored out of my mind working for 10 years on the same thing, regardless of compensation.

Yoric 4y ago

I may be misreading your post, but if I'm not, you seem to be claiming that people who got laid off had it coming?

galaxyLogic 4y ago

I think this maps roughly to the idea of some people being "introverts" and others "extroverts". Extroverts are good at selling themselves, they enjoy that activity. Introverts are interested in how to do good work, not in selling themselves. They don't like to go to job interviews, because that to them is not solving the interesting problems they are working on.