4 ms·

GNU Taler v0.9.0 Released

41 points by hdhrufjdi 4y ago

anderspitman 4y ago
I think physical wallets might be a requirement for crypto technologies to really go mainstream. Not because of any security reasons, but because it makes it easier for the average person to understand why if they lose their private key their money/data/etc is gone. It's hard to communicate this with software wallets when every other system people use has recovery mechanisms.
- k__ 4y ago
  Account abstraction/Smart contract wallets might eliminate that problem. https://support.argent.xyz/hc/en-us/articles/360008828238-Guardian-approvals-needed- https://support.argent.xyz/hc/en-us/articles/360008828238-Gu...
- rcme 4y ago
  People lose their traditional physical wallets all the time. Rarely does that result in total destruction of their wealth.
  - ris58h 4y ago
    it's not that easy to put a whole wealth in a wallet
  - pavon 4y ago
    Exactly, because they would never carry their life savings with them in their wallet. People do things with software wallets that they wouldn't do with cash, which suggests we need better ways of conveying appropriate mental models of how these things work. Physical wallets might be a good approach, or people might treat them like debit cards instead of wallets.
  - usefulcat 4y ago
    No but when that happens neither will they be surprised to lose any cash that was in the wallet.
- maeln 4y ago
  For the record, GNU Taler is not, and do not use, cryptocurrency. It is a decentralized payement system.
  - aww_dang 4y ago
    Is it not centralized around the exchange provider? I'm just checking into it now. There's also a strong emphasis around KYC/AML and regulatory compliance generally. Presumably the exchange provider would be able to recover a wallet based on the KYC?
  - pull_my_finger 4y ago
    IIRC it doesn't depend on crypto, but it can use crypto. One of the cool features is that you can use different currencies/tokens.
teddyh 4y ago
This is from (2022) 0.9.1 was released a few weeks ago: https://taler.net/en/news/2023-01.html https://taler.net/en/news/2023-01.html
Ambolia 4y ago
Looks interesting, is it really 100% anonymous and private for the customer? Can any merchant from any country register to receive money as long as they follow tax law from their own country, or is it subject to sanctions and things like that? Could be a nice method to reach countries like Syria now that they are suffering after the earthquake but many populations aren't allowed to help them because of sanctions.
- fsh 4y ago
  Taler is a payment system, not a currency. Transfers between individuals are not supported, only payment by individuals to merchants.
  - Ambolia 4y ago
    But who is allowed to register as a merchant?
  - teddyh 4y ago
    RMS calls GNU Taler “a software system for anonymous retail payments – payments from individuals to stores or individuals.” (Emphasis added) 30 seconds into this video: https://taler.net/en/news/2022-11.html https://taler.net/en/news/2022-11.html
  - waynesonfire 4y ago
    > Transfers between individuals are not supported, only payment by individuals to merchants. This isn't a problem unless becoming a merchant is a burden by whatever process or financially.
  - aww_dang 4y ago
    https://taler.net/en/faq.html#:~:text=Can%20I%20send%20money%20to%20my%20friends%20with%20Taler%3F https://taler.net/en/faq.html#:~:text=Can%20I%20send%20money... >Can I send money to my friends with Taler? Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.
joyfylbanana 4y ago
This project never made any sense. Move on.
- aww_dang 4y ago
  I think it is aimed towards institutions and government.
pavon 4y ago
Are there any Taler exchanges that allow you to transfer real currency into Taler? The current website makes it sound like Taler is now a working service in the present, rather than a promising technology in development (which is how I've always thought of it), but I can't figure out how to use it other than the toy currency demo.
- panick21_ 4y ago
  As far as I know this is a pure research project.
kanzure 4y ago
Glad to see GNU Taler continuing to make progress. Their focus on banks is nice but given the current regulatory posture in the US it seems like digital cash won't be inside banks any time soon. Disclaimer: I built https://webcash.org/ https://webcash.org/ as something people can use immediately. It has some important differences from Taler and it's not quite the same, nor using the Chaumian blinding technique and not backed by an institution or "peg".
ploum 4y ago
Could somebody explains or points out a ressource explaining how GNU Taler solves the double-spending problem ? Or what the design is ? In the traditional model (banks/credit cards), you simply sign a transaction that the receiver bank will then later handle to your bank. You let bank figure out how to transfer the money. Banks are basically a huge excel sheet with all the balances of customers. To avoid banks artificially adding numbers in the excel sheet, we rely on regulations (the fact that it works or not is besides the discussion here) In the cryptocurrency, you share that huge excel sheet and each transaction is a modification that should be approved by the majority of users. Unlike banks, it is now proved that it works and you cannot manipulate the excel sheet, meaning you don’t need regulation anymore (whether this is a good thing or not is besides the discussion here. Just stating facts). So my question: with GNU Taller, who maintain that huge excel sheet?
- Jonovono 4y ago
  From what I understand, the bank will still maintain the huge excel sheet, but you get the benifit of crypto because when they issue the "tokens" that they accept, they are double blind signed. So the bank doesn't know who bought what
  - ploum 4y ago
    So you need to setup a bank that both the sender and the buyer will use. That’s one order of magnitude harder to do right.

41 points by hdhrufjdi 4y ago

I think physical wallets might be a requirement for crypto technologies to really go mainstream. Not because of any security reasons, but because it makes it easier for the average person to understand why if they lose their private key their money/data/etc is gone. It's hard to communicate this with software wallets when every other system people use has recovery mechanisms.

k__ 4y ago
Account abstraction/Smart contract wallets might eliminate that problem. https://support.argent.xyz/hc/en-us/articles/360008828238-Guardian-approvals-needed- https://support.argent.xyz/hc/en-us/articles/360008828238-Gu...
rcme 4y ago
People lose their traditional physical wallets all the time. Rarely does that result in total destruction of their wealth.
- ris58h 4y ago
  it's not that easy to put a whole wealth in a wallet
- pavon 4y ago
  Exactly, because they would never carry their life savings with them in their wallet. People do things with software wallets that they wouldn't do with cash, which suggests we need better ways of conveying appropriate mental models of how these things work. Physical wallets might be a good approach, or people might treat them like debit cards instead of wallets.
- usefulcat 4y ago
  No but when that happens neither will they be surprised to lose any cash that was in the wallet.
maeln 4y ago
For the record, GNU Taler is not, and do not use, cryptocurrency. It is a decentralized payement system.
- aww_dang 4y ago
  Is it not centralized around the exchange provider? I'm just checking into it now. There's also a strong emphasis around KYC/AML and regulatory compliance generally. Presumably the exchange provider would be able to recover a wallet based on the KYC?
- pull_my_finger 4y ago
  IIRC it doesn't depend on crypto, but it can use crypto. One of the cool features is that you can use different currencies/tokens.

teddyh 4y ago

This is from (2022) 0.9.1 was released a few weeks ago: https://taler.net/en/news/2023-01.html https://taler.net/en/news/2023-01.html

Ambolia 4y ago

Looks interesting, is it really 100% anonymous and private for the customer? Can any merchant from any country register to receive money as long as they follow tax law from their own country, or is it subject to sanctions and things like that? Could be a nice method to reach countries like Syria now that they are suffering after the earthquake but many populations aren't allowed to help them because of sanctions.

fsh 4y ago
Taler is a payment system, not a currency. Transfers between individuals are not supported, only payment by individuals to merchants.
- Ambolia 4y ago
  But who is allowed to register as a merchant?
- teddyh 4y ago
  RMS calls GNU Taler “a software system for anonymous retail payments – payments from individuals to stores or individuals.” (Emphasis added) 30 seconds into this video: https://taler.net/en/news/2022-11.html https://taler.net/en/news/2022-11.html
- waynesonfire 4y ago
  > Transfers between individuals are not supported, only payment by individuals to merchants. This isn't a problem unless becoming a merchant is a burden by whatever process or financially.
- aww_dang 4y ago
  https://taler.net/en/faq.html#:~:text=Can%20I%20send%20money%20to%20my%20friends%20with%20Taler%3F https://taler.net/en/faq.html#:~:text=Can%20I%20send%20money... >Can I send money to my friends with Taler? Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.

joyfylbanana 4y ago

This project never made any sense. Move on.

aww_dang 4y ago
I think it is aimed towards institutions and government.

pavon 4y ago

Are there any Taler exchanges that allow you to transfer real currency into Taler? The current website makes it sound like Taler is now a working service in the present, rather than a promising technology in development (which is how I've always thought of it), but I can't figure out how to use it other than the toy currency demo.

panick21_ 4y ago
As far as I know this is a pure research project.

kanzure 4y ago

Glad to see GNU Taler continuing to make progress. Their focus on banks is nice but given the current regulatory posture in the US it seems like digital cash won't be inside banks any time soon. Disclaimer: I built https://webcash.org/ https://webcash.org/ as something people can use immediately. It has some important differences from Taler and it's not quite the same, nor using the Chaumian blinding technique and not backed by an institution or "peg".

ploum 4y ago

Could somebody explains or points out a ressource explaining how GNU Taler solves the double-spending problem ? Or what the design is ? In the traditional model (banks/credit cards), you simply sign a transaction that the receiver bank will then later handle to your bank. You let bank figure out how to transfer the money. Banks are basically a huge excel sheet with all the balances of customers. To avoid banks artificially adding numbers in the excel sheet, we rely on regulations (the fact that it works or not is besides the discussion here) In the cryptocurrency, you share that huge excel sheet and each transaction is a modification that should be approved by the majority of users. Unlike banks, it is now proved that it works and you cannot manipulate the excel sheet, meaning you don’t need regulation anymore (whether this is a good thing or not is besides the discussion here. Just stating facts). So my question: with GNU Taller, who maintain that huge excel sheet?

Jonovono 4y ago
From what I understand, the bank will still maintain the huge excel sheet, but you get the benifit of crypto because when they issue the "tokens" that they accept, they are double blind signed. So the bank doesn't know who bought what
- ploum 4y ago
  So you need to setup a bank that both the sender and the buyer will use. That’s one order of magnitude harder to do right.