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Are you in the UK? That's not my take on what's happening - I've seen a big uptick in electric cars and charging infra in the last year or so. I've seen plent

Are you in the UK? That's not my take on what's happening - I've seen a big uptick in electric cars and charging infra in the last year or so. I've seen plenty of graphs that look like the UK would be mostly done with the transition to EVs for this segment by 2030 even if the ban wasn't coming into force - looks like a traditional sigmoid curve to me.

mytailorisrich 4y ago
Yes, I am in the UK. The number of charging points is not keeping up with the planned schedule and number of new EVs on the road. The issue of people who cannot charge at home is not being tackled. Perhaps the most important issue: The grid is not being upgraded and electricity production is not keeping up (matter made even worse by the push to also get rid of gas boilers in homes). EVs are also still unaffordable to most, which is perhaps a blessing considering the above: Buying an EV is the 'easy' part. Edit: Grid is at capacity. There are many articles on that online from growing problems to connect new electricity sources to even potential restrictions on new homes [1]. Electricity production is not increasing. I believe peak production was reached in 2005 and since then nuclear plants have been decommissioned and renewables have not filled the gap. So solve both issues is a big task to say the least. And then there's still the lack of charging points. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/519f701f-6a05-4cf4-bc46-22cf10c7c2c0 https://www.ft.com/content/519f701f-6a05-4cf4-bc46-22cf10c7c...
- ClumsyPilot 4y ago
  > The grid is not being upgraded and electricity production is not keeping up. Why do you believe this is the case? I cannot see any evidence of this probpem, in fact. Octopus energy for example is very happy about using Evs to help balance the grid and their 'virtual powerplant' Charging ooint, yes, they are an issue PS: this https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-grows-uks-largest-virtual-power-plant/ https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-grows-uks-larges...
  - flangola7 4y ago
    What do you mean by using EVs to balance the grid? How is drawing more power from it balancing it?
    - dashundchen 4y ago
      Many utilities are interested in using EVs as batteries for the grid. After all, typical EVs sold today have 60-100kWh batteries and are sitting parked the majority of the time. The idea is the utility would offer payment or incentive to use your battery and balance the grid. The idea has been for a while, and is starting to come to wider testing with the finalization of Vehicle to Grid standards for the CCS charging standard. Some other charging standards like Chademo already supported this usecase but aren't widely used in Europe or North America.
      - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
        Of course, that most logical thing which owners of an expensive BEV will do, is joining a program where they can cycle out their expensive battery and come to discharged car at the morning.
        dashundchen 4y ago
        I think it would depend on the implementation of the program, but if the incentive is right, people will join. Many utilities already offer voluntary curtailment programs and time-of-use incentives, and customers definitely respond. Modern batteries with modern battery management systems are more durable than you think. Most things I've read expect a typical EV battery to retain usable capacity past the lifespan of the car itself, not to mention EVs typically have "hidden" capacity buffers against degradation. I doubt any program would completely discharge a car, likely a program would involve a smart charger that would charge and discharge within a certain agreed upon window. Look at the current residential demand response programs for an example. Details vary, but a quick search will show you a range of different programs. Typically, utilities will announce incentive windows for peak periods ahead of time. Opt-in customers have thermostats that will respond to the peak program by reducing heat or cooling to an agreed upon temperature. The customer can override if they would like, but if they do they will lose the incentive. Customers get a lower bill, utilities can save a lot shaving peak loads and avoid capacity problems.
- DrBazza 4y ago
  > The grid is not being upgraded and electricity production is not keeping up Agreed. We need, charitably, a 25% increase in electricity generation, and we're not getting that. We're getting "(shouts) more wind turbines!!!" and "(whispers) we've just turned off a 250MW gas power station". EVs are going to be biggest single "new user" of electricity in decades and are going to be a huge drag on the network. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain)#/media/File:UK_historical_net_electricity_supplied.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain)#...
DrBazza 4y ago
Even a naive calculation based on the total number of vehicles registered with the DVLA (including classic cars, buses, lorries, etc.) and the draw on the national grid, means we'd have to double the current generating capacity in the UK to charge all those vehicles at the same time. Admittedly, that's never going to be the case, but the number of car owners grows year on year. Best case, we need to add an additional 10-30% electrical capacity in the UK by 2030. And that's exclusively for EVs. Never mind that as the economy grows it requires even more electricity for other industries. And we're still squabbling (unscientifically) over nuclear (it's safe and it's green), and wind turbines (we really, really, need better storage). Of course, charging stations, everywhere. My town of 100,000 has 20 public chargers that I know of, with I'd guess an average charging time of 30 minutes. Versus 10 petrol garages, with approx. 10 pumps, and a filling time of under 5 minutes. Arguably, we'd need 600 chargers to provide the same 'capacity' as 100 petrol pumps, if not more. Yes, people can charge from home. Some can't. And the range problem. I personally drive 300+ miles in one journey a few times a month (relatives at the top of the country). I will not spend an additional hour at EV stations when my fossil fuel car can get me there on half a tank without stopping. Until the range problem is solved (600 miles on one charge, guaranteed), I'll be the last person to buy an EV.

mytailorisrich 4y ago

Yes, I am in the UK. The number of charging points is not keeping up with the planned schedule and number of new EVs on the road. The issue of people who cannot charge at home is not being tackled. Perhaps the most important issue: The grid is not being upgraded and electricity production is not keeping up (matter made even worse by the push to also get rid of gas boilers in homes). EVs are also still unaffordable to most, which is perhaps a blessing considering the above: Buying an EV is the 'easy' part. Edit: Grid is at capacity. There are many articles on that online from growing problems to connect new electricity sources to even potential restrictions on new homes [1]. Electricity production is not increasing. I believe peak production was reached in 2005 and since then nuclear plants have been decommissioned and renewables have not filled the gap. So solve both issues is a big task to say the least. And then there's still the lack of charging points. [1] https://www.ft.com/content/519f701f-6a05-4cf4-bc46-22cf10c7c2c0 https://www.ft.com/content/519f701f-6a05-4cf4-bc46-22cf10c7c...

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
> The grid is not being upgraded and electricity production is not keeping up. Why do you believe this is the case? I cannot see any evidence of this probpem, in fact. Octopus energy for example is very happy about using Evs to help balance the grid and their 'virtual powerplant' Charging ooint, yes, they are an issue PS: this https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-grows-uks-largest-virtual-power-plant/ https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-grows-uks-larges...
- flangola7 4y ago
  What do you mean by using EVs to balance the grid? How is drawing more power from it balancing it?
  - dashundchen 4y ago
    Many utilities are interested in using EVs as batteries for the grid. After all, typical EVs sold today have 60-100kWh batteries and are sitting parked the majority of the time. The idea is the utility would offer payment or incentive to use your battery and balance the grid. The idea has been for a while, and is starting to come to wider testing with the finalization of Vehicle to Grid standards for the CCS charging standard. Some other charging standards like Chademo already supported this usecase but aren't widely used in Europe or North America.
    - TheLoafOfBread 4y ago
      Of course, that most logical thing which owners of an expensive BEV will do, is joining a program where they can cycle out their expensive battery and come to discharged car at the morning.
      - dashundchen 4y ago
        I think it would depend on the implementation of the program, but if the incentive is right, people will join. Many utilities already offer voluntary curtailment programs and time-of-use incentives, and customers definitely respond. Modern batteries with modern battery management systems are more durable than you think. Most things I've read expect a typical EV battery to retain usable capacity past the lifespan of the car itself, not to mention EVs typically have "hidden" capacity buffers against degradation. I doubt any program would completely discharge a car, likely a program would involve a smart charger that would charge and discharge within a certain agreed upon window. Look at the current residential demand response programs for an example. Details vary, but a quick search will show you a range of different programs. Typically, utilities will announce incentive windows for peak periods ahead of time. Opt-in customers have thermostats that will respond to the peak program by reducing heat or cooling to an agreed upon temperature. The customer can override if they would like, but if they do they will lose the incentive. Customers get a lower bill, utilities can save a lot shaving peak loads and avoid capacity problems.
DrBazza 4y ago
> The grid is not being upgraded and electricity production is not keeping up Agreed. We need, charitably, a 25% increase in electricity generation, and we're not getting that. We're getting "(shouts) more wind turbines!!!" and "(whispers) we've just turned off a 250MW gas power station". EVs are going to be biggest single "new user" of electricity in decades and are going to be a huge drag on the network. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain)#/media/File:UK_historical_net_electricity_supplied.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_(Great_Britain)#...

DrBazza 4y ago

Even a naive calculation based on the total number of vehicles registered with the DVLA (including classic cars, buses, lorries, etc.) and the draw on the national grid, means we'd have to double the current generating capacity in the UK to charge all those vehicles at the same time. Admittedly, that's never going to be the case, but the number of car owners grows year on year. Best case, we need to add an additional 10-30% electrical capacity in the UK by 2030. And that's exclusively for EVs. Never mind that as the economy grows it requires even more electricity for other industries. And we're still squabbling (unscientifically) over nuclear (it's safe and it's green), and wind turbines (we really, really, need better storage). Of course, charging stations, everywhere. My town of 100,000 has 20 public chargers that I know of, with I'd guess an average charging time of 30 minutes. Versus 10 petrol garages, with approx. 10 pumps, and a filling time of under 5 minutes. Arguably, we'd need 600 chargers to provide the same 'capacity' as 100 petrol pumps, if not more. Yes, people can charge from home. Some can't. And the range problem. I personally drive 300+ miles in one journey a few times a month (relatives at the top of the country). I will not spend an additional hour at EV stations when my fossil fuel car can get me there on half a tank without stopping. Until the range problem is solved (600 miles on one charge, guaranteed), I'll be the last person to buy an EV.