4 ms·

Many Indians in America or Americans of Indian descent disagree with the rise of fascism in India. Of course many also fall into the default nationalistic mode

Many Indians in America or Americans of Indian descent disagree with the rise of fascism in India. Of course many also fall into the default nationalistic mode and become defensive. Actions to take against a ruling party that has widespread support from the police, legislature, judiciary, and media are limited. In India, about 15% of Indians are Christians, Muslims, or other non Hindus. And among Hindus, about 40% are Dalits. The majority of Indians in India are threatened by this rise in fascist actions and rhetoric. And yet, even against all odds, a few people in India stand up for justice. The silence or inaction of the majority should not be criticized too harshly since it is not easy to put everything on the line. But those that do deserve all of humanity’s appreciation. Under Modi, India’s press is not as free anymore - April 2, 2020 - Vindu Goel and Jeffrey Gettleman https://archive.ph/zPhMH https://archive.ph/zPhMH Jailed Indian journalist gets bail almost two years after arrest - September 10, 2022 - Shaikh Azizur Rahman https://archive.ph/5sxUA https://archive.ph/5sxUA Rana Ayyub, journalist and Modi critic, barred from leaving India - March 30, 2022 - Aakash Hassan https://archive.ph/Ibu7S https://archive.ph/Ibu7S

paganel 4y ago
> Many Indians in America or Americans of Indian descent disagree with the rise of fascism in India I'm aware of that, as I'm also aware that many Russians (especially the educated tech elites) are against the current government in Moscow. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the guys calling the shots in Washington, as in, what measures should be taken in regards to the Chinese very-well represented tech diaspora in case of a war against China? (and, as I said, if some skirmishes involving the current Indian leadership were to start). When it came to Russia it looks like the the US and the West went all in, almost all Russians were treated as guilty by default unless. I'm wondering if the same actions will be taken against the Chinese working for the big US tech firms (or against the Indians). I'm saying that that would be harder for the US to carry out (compared to the current shitting on the Russian diaspora).
- naravara 4y ago
  Where did you get 40%? The proportion of scheduled castes is somewhere in the mid-20s, you only get into the mid- to high-30s if you include "Other Backwards Castes," who aren't Dalits but are able to make a general case that they were low on the status hierarchy historically. But, cynically, that whole framework is mostly just a way for the numerically large smallholder classes to create reservations, that were originally meant to correct for untouchability, for themselves through a sort of caste-based patronage politics. There are also lower and higher castes among Indian Muslims and Christians as well. It's a indigenous form of social stratification, more analogous to how we think of ethnicity or race, that's independent of peoples' confessional identity.
  - mikehotel 4y ago
    Do you think there is a rise in fascist actions and rhetoric in India? And that the majority of Indians are threatened by this? Thanks for correcting me on OBC and Dalits. The framework is definitely problematic. And it adds another layer of complexity to racial, religious, and economic demographics. Thanks for prompting me to learn more about this. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/06/29/attitudes-about-caste/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/06/29/attitudes-ab...
    - naravara 4y ago
      I would hesitate to characterize everything happening as fascist since that's a loaded term and I think it brings in a lot of baggage when transposed cross-culturally that confuses more than it clears up. I think there has been a rise in extremism and political violence that is largely, but not exclusively, driven by the hard right. And I think Modi has a particularly callous, realpolitik approach to governance that enflames social tensions and imposes burdens on marginalized members of society in pursuit of a "development and superpower status at any cost" agenda. But I don't think it's accurate to say the majority of Indians are threatened by this. The BJP enjoys fairly strong support among Dalit communities (about 40% in the last election IIRC), with a decent amount of the remainder voting for Dalit organized political parties due to communal affiliation rather than categorical opposition to the BJP as a party. The party as a whole is not minoritarian or fringe (though it has such factions within it), and the attempts by English language media to treat them as a sort of pariah government will backfire. The party's attacks on civil society are troubling and, while, the presence of roving goon squads running around terrorizing people over random slights didn't start with them (and is usually more by junior local parties like the Shiv Sena), their selective approach to meting out justice and slow-rolling investigations has begun to normalize this behavior. This will only mean further ratcheting up of communal tensions across the country and making the social trust and cohesive political culture necessary for democratic institutions to work more brittle. But all that said, they don't seem to really be engaged in the kinds of election rigging we see from right-wing parties in other countries with creeping authoritarian movements (like the USA). They actually win fair elections straight up, without leaning on counter-majoritarian institutions or voter suppression schemes like our own GOP rely on. Nor do they engage in the same extent of corrupt, clientelist political organization that the opposition Congress Party is dependent on (there is plenty of corruption, but it's India and we apply a normalized scale). I think a lot of the English language commentary on Indian politics has trouble grappling with the fact that this is a political party with a broad-base of popular support across the country. They try to cast it as a minority faction that is playing unfairly, characterized by its most lunatic fringe elements, but that is simply not the case. It's a mainstream institution with serious statespeople in it that mostly engages in consensus-seeking approaches to enacting policy. I also don't really think the BJP is in the driver's seat with the ratcheting up of rhetoric and political violence as much as it is victim of some sort of societal radicalization loop as everyone else (though Modi, and particularly some of the goons under him, are a bit of an accelerant). I think the conflicts about national identity is a predictable consequence of globalization and a colossal generation of poor and rural communities being fast-tracked into structured, urban, capitalist lifestyles and all the social dislocation that brings. You actually see the same kinds of hardening of identity lines and empowering of regressive and conservative elements across all religious groups in India. It's just that the Muslims and Christians aren't numerous enough to push that agenda as effectively in the political arena. But internally Muslim and Christian communities in India have also begun to adopt more fundamentalist and hardline approaches to practice. Many of the traditional, indigenous Indian Christian traditions are losing ground to more aggressively evangelical Churches (largely bankrolled by American missionaries). The traditionally syncretic Islamic traditions in India have become increasingly strict. Even the vaguely atheistic, educated secularist set is enamored of Marxism and other dogmatic ideological positions. It's an endemic social disease that seems to be even worse in India than it is here. The size of the Hindu population creates a disparity in power dynamics in a democratic country that makes the same tendency extra problematic. But characterizing this as just being a "Hindu" thing is missing the underlying driving force and mistaking a symptom for the disease. The pluralist country of my youth, where everyone was kind of loosey-goosey about these boundaries seems to be gone. I just hope this is some sort of temporary mania brought on by all the social dislocation I mentioned and not the new status quo.
- mikehotel 4y ago
  The USG uses sanctions against organizations or individuals that act against its interests. When it is in a war, nationals from that country will receive increased scrutiny but I hope USG have learned from the internment of Japanese citizens in US during WWII that there is a line that shouldn’t be crossed. (Gitmo indicates they have indeed learned something.) I understand your point about how unfair and unjust guilt by association is. In a country that hoists the banner of freedom and attracts the best and the brightest from around the world, the US must take steps to protect civilians in the US from bigotry and discrimination. Regardless of their background. I apologize for the current political climate causing Russians civilians in the US to feel this way. If it is of any solace, be assured they are not alone in their experiences.

paganel 4y ago

> Many Indians in America or Americans of Indian descent disagree with the rise of fascism in India I'm aware of that, as I'm also aware that many Russians (especially the educated tech elites) are against the current government in Moscow. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the guys calling the shots in Washington, as in, what measures should be taken in regards to the Chinese very-well represented tech diaspora in case of a war against China? (and, as I said, if some skirmishes involving the current Indian leadership were to start). When it came to Russia it looks like the the US and the West went all in, almost all Russians were treated as guilty by default unless. I'm wondering if the same actions will be taken against the Chinese working for the big US tech firms (or against the Indians). I'm saying that that would be harder for the US to carry out (compared to the current shitting on the Russian diaspora).

naravara 4y ago
Where did you get 40%? The proportion of scheduled castes is somewhere in the mid-20s, you only get into the mid- to high-30s if you include "Other Backwards Castes," who aren't Dalits but are able to make a general case that they were low on the status hierarchy historically. But, cynically, that whole framework is mostly just a way for the numerically large smallholder classes to create reservations, that were originally meant to correct for untouchability, for themselves through a sort of caste-based patronage politics. There are also lower and higher castes among Indian Muslims and Christians as well. It's a indigenous form of social stratification, more analogous to how we think of ethnicity or race, that's independent of peoples' confessional identity.
- mikehotel 4y ago
  Do you think there is a rise in fascist actions and rhetoric in India? And that the majority of Indians are threatened by this? Thanks for correcting me on OBC and Dalits. The framework is definitely problematic. And it adds another layer of complexity to racial, religious, and economic demographics. Thanks for prompting me to learn more about this. https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/06/29/attitudes-about-caste/ https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/06/29/attitudes-ab...
  - naravara 4y ago
    I would hesitate to characterize everything happening as fascist since that's a loaded term and I think it brings in a lot of baggage when transposed cross-culturally that confuses more than it clears up. I think there has been a rise in extremism and political violence that is largely, but not exclusively, driven by the hard right. And I think Modi has a particularly callous, realpolitik approach to governance that enflames social tensions and imposes burdens on marginalized members of society in pursuit of a "development and superpower status at any cost" agenda. But I don't think it's accurate to say the majority of Indians are threatened by this. The BJP enjoys fairly strong support among Dalit communities (about 40% in the last election IIRC), with a decent amount of the remainder voting for Dalit organized political parties due to communal affiliation rather than categorical opposition to the BJP as a party. The party as a whole is not minoritarian or fringe (though it has such factions within it), and the attempts by English language media to treat them as a sort of pariah government will backfire. The party's attacks on civil society are troubling and, while, the presence of roving goon squads running around terrorizing people over random slights didn't start with them (and is usually more by junior local parties like the Shiv Sena), their selective approach to meting out justice and slow-rolling investigations has begun to normalize this behavior. This will only mean further ratcheting up of communal tensions across the country and making the social trust and cohesive political culture necessary for democratic institutions to work more brittle. But all that said, they don't seem to really be engaged in the kinds of election rigging we see from right-wing parties in other countries with creeping authoritarian movements (like the USA). They actually win fair elections straight up, without leaning on counter-majoritarian institutions or voter suppression schemes like our own GOP rely on. Nor do they engage in the same extent of corrupt, clientelist political organization that the opposition Congress Party is dependent on (there is plenty of corruption, but it's India and we apply a normalized scale). I think a lot of the English language commentary on Indian politics has trouble grappling with the fact that this is a political party with a broad-base of popular support across the country. They try to cast it as a minority faction that is playing unfairly, characterized by its most lunatic fringe elements, but that is simply not the case. It's a mainstream institution with serious statespeople in it that mostly engages in consensus-seeking approaches to enacting policy. I also don't really think the BJP is in the driver's seat with the ratcheting up of rhetoric and political violence as much as it is victim of some sort of societal radicalization loop as everyone else (though Modi, and particularly some of the goons under him, are a bit of an accelerant). I think the conflicts about national identity is a predictable consequence of globalization and a colossal generation of poor and rural communities being fast-tracked into structured, urban, capitalist lifestyles and all the social dislocation that brings. You actually see the same kinds of hardening of identity lines and empowering of regressive and conservative elements across all religious groups in India. It's just that the Muslims and Christians aren't numerous enough to push that agenda as effectively in the political arena. But internally Muslim and Christian communities in India have also begun to adopt more fundamentalist and hardline approaches to practice. Many of the traditional, indigenous Indian Christian traditions are losing ground to more aggressively evangelical Churches (largely bankrolled by American missionaries). The traditionally syncretic Islamic traditions in India have become increasingly strict. Even the vaguely atheistic, educated secularist set is enamored of Marxism and other dogmatic ideological positions. It's an endemic social disease that seems to be even worse in India than it is here. The size of the Hindu population creates a disparity in power dynamics in a democratic country that makes the same tendency extra problematic. But characterizing this as just being a "Hindu" thing is missing the underlying driving force and mistaking a symptom for the disease. The pluralist country of my youth, where everyone was kind of loosey-goosey about these boundaries seems to be gone. I just hope this is some sort of temporary mania brought on by all the social dislocation I mentioned and not the new status quo.
mikehotel 4y ago
The USG uses sanctions against organizations or individuals that act against its interests. When it is in a war, nationals from that country will receive increased scrutiny but I hope USG have learned from the internment of Japanese citizens in US during WWII that there is a line that shouldn’t be crossed. (Gitmo indicates they have indeed learned something.) I understand your point about how unfair and unjust guilt by association is. In a country that hoists the banner of freedom and attracts the best and the brightest from around the world, the US must take steps to protect civilians in the US from bigotry and discrimination. Regardless of their background. I apologize for the current political climate causing Russians civilians in the US to feel this way. If it is of any solace, be assured they are not alone in their experiences.