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The idea that "invidivual performance and personal relationships" provides job security is a laughable idea in almost any industry. The wave of tech layoffs sh

The idea that "invidivual performance and personal relationships" provides job security is a laughable idea in almost any industry. The wave of tech layoffs should've made that clear. The USA's primal hatred of unions will always blow my mind. There's power in a union my friend.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
You're talking about specific job security. He's talking about general job security (or at least seems to be based on wording). A union protects your specific job for a specific employer (or set of employers or subset of industry). Networks and reputation protect your ability to get paid for the thing you do in general. The degree to which either approach is successful is going to depend on one's industry and position/skill-set therein. Edit: This shouldn't need to be said but the above should not be construed as an endorsement of either approach.
- vidarh 4y ago
  The latter is mostly relevant for specialist, high paid labour. I'm not in a union, but I'm also roughly in the 1%. If I was anywhere below the top 5% or so, I'd have joined a union in a heartbeat, and like commenters above I find the US resistance to unions utterly bizarre, not least because US unions were instrumental in laying the groundwork for a lot of modern labour protections, to the point of losing lives as part of those battles. Even May 1st as an international day for labour demonstrations came after a request from the AFL in part as commemoration of the Chicago Haymarket Massacre, and as a renewal of the multi-decades fight for the 8 hour working day.
- jimnotgym 4y ago
  If ones job at Tesla is to screw on wing mirrors, how should one go about building a network and developing their reputation? A github page? Speak at conferences maybe? I wish unions were not needed too, then I hear about shitty employers exploiting poor people and I accept that unions are needed.
elif 4y ago
I'm not trying to say everyone that got let go is a low performer or has poor personal skills. I've seen plenty of good employees fired for bad or no reason. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that even working with a guillotine above my head feels preferable to having to pick up the slack of people coasting and not meeting their commitments.
- vidarh 4y ago
  If a union protects people who are not doing their job from being made to do it, that is an argument for chosing a different union not against unions in general.
  - Robotbeat 4y ago
    In the US, you don’t really have the luxury of picking a different union. This is one reason unions suck in the US.
    - vidarh 4y ago
      You do, sort of (though I get what you mean) even as an individual, even though it's less common and affects the benefits you get from being a member, and you may risk still paying dues to the recognised union (if there is one, and your state allows agency fees). At the larger scale, your choice is to try to convince your co-workers. The downside of joining a minority union / members only union is not that different in the US as elsewhere, in that you generally have no legal right to be treated as a bargaining agent or in the case of some such unions they explicitly don't even try get recognition. But even the US has examples of minority unions being voluntarily given some degree of representation: https://eu.freep.com/story/money/cars/2014/11/12/uaw-volkswagen-organizing-policy-representation/18901197/ https://eu.freep.com/story/money/cars/2014/11/12/uaw-volkswa...
      - Robotbeat 4y ago
        So in other words… we have effective union monopolization in the US.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago

You're talking about specific job security. He's talking about general job security (or at least seems to be based on wording). A union protects your specific job for a specific employer (or set of employers or subset of industry). Networks and reputation protect your ability to get paid for the thing you do in general. The degree to which either approach is successful is going to depend on one's industry and position/skill-set therein. Edit: This shouldn't need to be said but the above should not be construed as an endorsement of either approach.

vidarh 4y ago
The latter is mostly relevant for specialist, high paid labour. I'm not in a union, but I'm also roughly in the 1%. If I was anywhere below the top 5% or so, I'd have joined a union in a heartbeat, and like commenters above I find the US resistance to unions utterly bizarre, not least because US unions were instrumental in laying the groundwork for a lot of modern labour protections, to the point of losing lives as part of those battles. Even May 1st as an international day for labour demonstrations came after a request from the AFL in part as commemoration of the Chicago Haymarket Massacre, and as a renewal of the multi-decades fight for the 8 hour working day.
jimnotgym 4y ago
If ones job at Tesla is to screw on wing mirrors, how should one go about building a network and developing their reputation? A github page? Speak at conferences maybe? I wish unions were not needed too, then I hear about shitty employers exploiting poor people and I accept that unions are needed.

elif 4y ago

I'm not trying to say everyone that got let go is a low performer or has poor personal skills. I've seen plenty of good employees fired for bad or no reason. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that even working with a guillotine above my head feels preferable to having to pick up the slack of people coasting and not meeting their commitments.

vidarh 4y ago
If a union protects people who are not doing their job from being made to do it, that is an argument for chosing a different union not against unions in general.
- Robotbeat 4y ago
  In the US, you don’t really have the luxury of picking a different union. This is one reason unions suck in the US.
  - vidarh 4y ago
    You do, sort of (though I get what you mean) even as an individual, even though it's less common and affects the benefits you get from being a member, and you may risk still paying dues to the recognised union (if there is one, and your state allows agency fees). At the larger scale, your choice is to try to convince your co-workers. The downside of joining a minority union / members only union is not that different in the US as elsewhere, in that you generally have no legal right to be treated as a bargaining agent or in the case of some such unions they explicitly don't even try get recognition. But even the US has examples of minority unions being voluntarily given some degree of representation: https://eu.freep.com/story/money/cars/2014/11/12/uaw-volkswagen-organizing-policy-representation/18901197/ https://eu.freep.com/story/money/cars/2014/11/12/uaw-volkswa...
    - Robotbeat 4y ago
      So in other words… we have effective union monopolization in the US.