4 ms·

Aren't people who value fun and positivity over sincerity by definition shallow and fake?

Lutger 4y ago
Maybe, yes. I tend to agree. From their point of view however, the people who don't value fun as much are whiny and annoying, and maybe we are but probably because we aren't heard. Well, speaking for myself, I tend to be much less whiny about things if I have the feeling someone takes me seriously.
- roflyear 4y ago
  I value fun, but I think my problem is I go to work to WORK. You would think companies would want this. I accept some level of "not work" because that is life, but when I'm actively being prevented from doing work due to dysfunction, I get really upset. I guess I should just be "overemployed" so I can retire earlier LOL.
dasil003 4y ago
You’re not wrong, but there’s nuance here. A pessimist will often hide behind the shield of sincerity. But they are often no more capable of fixing problems than the cheerleader, which means not only are they ineffectual, they make everyone else feel bad along the way. Ultimately you want competent, realistic and upbeat.
- Lutger 4y ago
  I agree, actually. Bitterness doesn't solve anything. Dysfunctional orgs are usually beyond salvation. For me, the question is: can I say the deadline is unrealistic and off by 2x as a matter of fact and can we discuss how to deal with that, as a matter of fact, not blaming anyone? Just the facts. Sometimes this is impossible because the mere mention of it makes me the pessimist and is putting everyone in a bad mood.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Yeah. I do agree that if you find yourself being bitter, it is the org, usually, not you. > can I say the deadline is unrealistic and off by 2x as a matter of fact and can we discuss how to deal with that, as a matter of fact, not blaming anyone? Just the facts. I'd hope so, but at my company the conversation would either end (CTO would say "I got to go join another meeting") or it would be interpreted as you "saying no."
    - dasil003 4y ago
      One thing that really came into focus for me once I got into my 40s and had had a chance to see all different manner of successful and dysfunctional teams from many different vantage points is that any binary assessment of an org as good or bad is overly reductive. Most orgs have good sides and bad sides, and a mature perspective is to either do what one can do improve the bad parts, or cut bait and find a new org. I realize this is a privileged perspective, but competent software engineers have options. I truly believe that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem—not in a malicious way, but systemic dysfunction is far more common than malintent, so if you truly see no path in contributing towards a better work environment then what are you doing with your life?
      - roflyear 4y ago
        In my case, there are extenuating circumstances - I have some level of responsibility to the owners, and I have special privileges where I work now.
8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
I don't think so. I value fun and positivity and I think I'm the opposite of fake. I don't have patience for being fake. I'll attend every social event, I clock out roughly on time, and I do what's needed of me without making a fuss. Want that stupid feature? Sure, as long as it's not morally reprehensible, I'll build it. What's any of that got to do with being fake? I don't suck up, and do things for the sake of promotion, I don't lie about things. If you ask for my opinion, I'll share it, even if it's negative. I don't think that makes me unfun though.
- roflyear 4y ago
  I'm not talking about a "stupid feature" I'm talking about your CTO saying something like "let's move to containerized SQLite instances for all our databases instead of using sql server" etc.. Just, unnecessary, arguably-insane things. I don't give a fuck if you want a stupid feature. That isn't my job. My job is, however, to give input into if I think certain changes to the platform are going to be detrimental. Just saying "yeah bossss!!!" to everything is not my job, and would be shallow and fake.
  - 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
    Oh yeah, if my boss wants to make a stupid technical decision I'd fight him on that. Fortunately my manager is smart.

Maybe, yes. I tend to agree. From their point of view however, the people who don't value fun as much are whiny and annoying, and maybe we are but probably because we aren't heard. Well, speaking for myself, I tend to be much less whiny about things if I have the feeling someone takes me seriously.

roflyear 4y ago
I value fun, but I think my problem is I go to work to WORK. You would think companies would want this. I accept some level of "not work" because that is life, but when I'm actively being prevented from doing work due to dysfunction, I get really upset. I guess I should just be "overemployed" so I can retire earlier LOL.

dasil003 4y ago

You’re not wrong, but there’s nuance here. A pessimist will often hide behind the shield of sincerity. But they are often no more capable of fixing problems than the cheerleader, which means not only are they ineffectual, they make everyone else feel bad along the way. Ultimately you want competent, realistic and upbeat.

Lutger 4y ago
I agree, actually. Bitterness doesn't solve anything. Dysfunctional orgs are usually beyond salvation. For me, the question is: can I say the deadline is unrealistic and off by 2x as a matter of fact and can we discuss how to deal with that, as a matter of fact, not blaming anyone? Just the facts. Sometimes this is impossible because the mere mention of it makes me the pessimist and is putting everyone in a bad mood.
- roflyear 4y ago
  Yeah. I do agree that if you find yourself being bitter, it is the org, usually, not you. > can I say the deadline is unrealistic and off by 2x as a matter of fact and can we discuss how to deal with that, as a matter of fact, not blaming anyone? Just the facts. I'd hope so, but at my company the conversation would either end (CTO would say "I got to go join another meeting") or it would be interpreted as you "saying no."
  - dasil003 4y ago
    One thing that really came into focus for me once I got into my 40s and had had a chance to see all different manner of successful and dysfunctional teams from many different vantage points is that any binary assessment of an org as good or bad is overly reductive. Most orgs have good sides and bad sides, and a mature perspective is to either do what one can do improve the bad parts, or cut bait and find a new org. I realize this is a privileged perspective, but competent software engineers have options. I truly believe that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem—not in a malicious way, but systemic dysfunction is far more common than malintent, so if you truly see no path in contributing towards a better work environment then what are you doing with your life?
    - roflyear 4y ago
      In my case, there are extenuating circumstances - I have some level of responsibility to the owners, and I have special privileges where I work now.

8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago

I don't think so. I value fun and positivity and I think I'm the opposite of fake. I don't have patience for being fake. I'll attend every social event, I clock out roughly on time, and I do what's needed of me without making a fuss. Want that stupid feature? Sure, as long as it's not morally reprehensible, I'll build it. What's any of that got to do with being fake? I don't suck up, and do things for the sake of promotion, I don't lie about things. If you ask for my opinion, I'll share it, even if it's negative. I don't think that makes me unfun though.

roflyear 4y ago
I'm not talking about a "stupid feature" I'm talking about your CTO saying something like "let's move to containerized SQLite instances for all our databases instead of using sql server" etc.. Just, unnecessary, arguably-insane things. I don't give a fuck if you want a stupid feature. That isn't my job. My job is, however, to give input into if I think certain changes to the platform are going to be detrimental. Just saying "yeah bossss!!!" to everything is not my job, and would be shallow and fake.
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
  Oh yeah, if my boss wants to make a stupid technical decision I'd fight him on that. Fortunately my manager is smart.