11 ms·

Is it just me, or are authoritarian regimes on the rise world-wide?

by bovermyer 4y ago

madaxe_again 4y ago
Yes. We technologists have made it far easier for them to crack down on dissent than ever before.
- ignoramous 4y ago
  You'd be surprised by just how many Modi (and right-wing) supporters exist among influential Indians in the Silicon Valley. They're not even subtle about it on Twitter.
  - paganel 4y ago
    I was actually wondering about that yesterday. It seems like the West, and the US more specifically, isn't capable anymore of physically reproducing/replacing its technocratic elites, which in this day and age mostly means its tech elites. Which made me wonder what would happen in case of a direct US vs China war when in some companies 20% to 30% to even 50% of the engineers have some close family connections on the Mainland. Will those engineers and tech people be ok with seeing China losing and their close family back home physically hurting? What would happen if the US starts playing it rough with India? When you've got the CEOs of some of the biggest US tech companies being of Indian descent themselves, not to mention the large percentage of Indian engineers active in the Valley and not only. It was way easier to set up the Manhattan project when many of the people involved had escaped physical annihilation here in Europe (against them and against their close family), but will the US be able to reproduce a future Manhattan project (let's say in AI) using and employing people whose families back home (in China, most probably, in India, as a possibility) would be directly and life-threatening affected by their work? I have my doubts.
    - mikehotel 4y ago
      Many Indians in America or Americans of Indian descent disagree with the rise of fascism in India. Of course many also fall into the default nationalistic mode and become defensive. Actions to take against a ruling party that has widespread support from the police, legislature, judiciary, and media are limited. In India, about 15% of Indians are Christians, Muslims, or other non Hindus. And among Hindus, about 40% are Dalits. The majority of Indians in India are threatened by this rise in fascist actions and rhetoric. And yet, even against all odds, a few people in India stand up for justice. The silence or inaction of the majority should not be criticized too harshly since it is not easy to put everything on the line. But those that do deserve all of humanity’s appreciation. Under Modi, India’s press is not as free anymore - April 2, 2020 - Vindu Goel and Jeffrey Gettleman https://archive.ph/zPhMH https://archive.ph/zPhMH Jailed Indian journalist gets bail almost two years after arrest - September 10, 2022 - Shaikh Azizur Rahman https://archive.ph/5sxUA https://archive.ph/5sxUA Rana Ayyub, journalist and Modi critic, barred from leaving India - March 30, 2022 - Aakash Hassan https://archive.ph/Ibu7S https://archive.ph/Ibu7S
      - paganel 4y ago
        > Many Indians in America or Americans of Indian descent disagree with the rise of fascism in India I'm aware of that, as I'm also aware that many Russians (especially the educated tech elites) are against the current government in Moscow. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the guys calling the shots in Washington, as in, what measures should be taken in regards to the Chinese very-well represented tech diaspora in case of a war against China? (and, as I said, if some skirmishes involving the current Indian leadership were to start). When it came to Russia it looks like the the US and the West went all in, almost all Russians were treated as guilty by default unless. I'm wondering if the same actions will be taken against the Chinese working for the big US tech firms (or against the Indians). I'm saying that that would be harder for the US to carry out (compared to the current shitting on the Russian diaspora).
        naravara 4y ago
        Where did you get 40%? The proportion of scheduled castes is somewhere in the mid-20s, you only get into the mid- to high-30s if you include "Other Backwards Castes," who aren't Dalits but are able to make a general case that they were low on the status hierarchy historically. But, cynically, that whole framework is mostly just a way for the numerically large smallholder classes to create reservations, that were originally meant to correct for untouchability, for themselves through a sort of caste-based patronage politics. There are also lower and higher castes among Indian Muslims and Christians as well. It's a indigenous form of social stratification, more analogous to how we think of ethnicity or race, that's independent of peoples' confessional identity.
  - cafard 4y ago
    In Washington, DC, there was a big rally against the revised Indian citizenship laws, all participants looking plausibly Indian. Of course, I have no idea of how influential the participants are.
  - rayiner 4y ago
    Modi is relatively popular among Indian Americans. Less popular than people in India, but more popular than you’d expect given Indian Americans’ voting patterns: https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/02/09/how-do-indian-americans-view-india-results-from-2020-indian-american-attitudes-survey-pub-83800 https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/02/09/how-do-indian-ameri... > The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is the most popular political party among Indian Americans. One-third of respondents favor the ruling BJP while just 12 percent identify with the Congress Party > Indian Americans hold broadly favorable views of Modi. Nearly half of all Indian Americans approve of Modi’s performance as prime minister This goes to a central contradiction which I’ve observed among Americans originally from the subcontinent: “liberalism for thee but not for me.”
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
- BeFlatXIII 4y ago
  There isn't really any "we technologists" that can collectively decide to stop the madness.
jack_riminton 4y ago
Yes, I think it's related to the waining political and economic power of the West and buoyed by Putin, Xi Jinping etc getting away with whatever they want
- zo1 4y ago
  Interesting choices. How about we talk about other countries that get away with various bits of blatant authoritarianism, sexism and racism each with their own unique take: Australia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Germany, etc.
  - jack_riminton 4y ago
    [flagged]
    - zo1 4y ago
      South Africa, and it's quite grey weather atm. We're just about to enter winter. But thank you for asking how I'm discriminated against based on the color of my skin by government laws.
    - briandear 4y ago
      No place for this nonsense on HN.
- gorilla0 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - bovermyer 4y ago
    You're aware that threats of violence, even vague ones, are against the terms of use of this community, right?
    - gorilla0 4y ago
      [dead]
dustedcodes 4y ago
Yes, extreme ideologies (left and right wing) and authoritarian views are on the rise because of three factors playing out at the same time: 1. Globalisation showing its cracks and becoming increasingly clear to be the reason for the skyrocketing of inequality and the widening of the wealth gap between the rich and the poor 2. People waking up to the fact that the West and the East are equally bad with a constant stream of bad leaders who make bad decisions for their own riches and for the huge hypocrisy as well as the apparent propaganda to which we are all (West and East) are subjected by our own governments and mainstream media outlets 3. Internet and social media making 1. and 2. extremely visible to everyone in every corner of the world As a result the world is becoming a lot more cynic on a much wider scale than ever before, people are becoming increasingly more selfish because they see that this is how the world operates as a whole without any shame and people are therefore increasingly more inclined to give their vote to people who "offer" radically different views to the status quo.
- BLKNSLVR 4y ago
  Where politicians lead, society will follow. If politicians are overtly selfish, it should be no surprise that society begins to shift in that same direction. If it's ok for them, gimme some of that sugar too! Having said that, maybe it's only the loud minority amplified by a desperate mainstream media making it appear that way?
- oblio 4y ago
  > People waking up to the fact that the West and the East are equally bad You probably want to define what "East" is in this context. If East is Russia + China, it's trivially easy to prove that the West is better for its own citizens. 1. Economic levels in the West. 2. Respect for citizens' lives in the West. I'm from a country that used to be in the Eastern Bloc, and let me tell you, nobody respects its citizens' lives like the collective West. Yes, the West is still horrible for many groups for human dignity, and yes, they don't always respect their citizens' lives, but boy, are they an improvement over most of the rest of the world. And we have the numbers, check out military casualties for each side in various wars. The West has by far fewer military casualties than China or Russia have. And that mentality permeates everywhere. Because if you don't care if your troops die in a war, you won't care if they die in a mine or an office building. Before you reply, keep in mind I'm talking about statistics.
eunos 4y ago
The old mantra "Ouside of Liberalism, there will be no prosperity" showing its crack. Western Liberal world order is not invincible anymore.
- andybak 4y ago
  Are you referring to economic Liberalism (classic or otherwise) or something else?
  - eunos 4y ago
    Not economic liberalism, more political liberalism.
    - andybak 4y ago
      The period it seemed invincible was fairly brief. During the cold war, the West wasn't especially "liberal" in it's interactions with the rest of the world. Post cold-war there was maybe a few years or less of Fukuyama-esque optimism. The Arab Spring looked positive and ended with most places worse than they started. So - not sure there was much of a window of invincibility. Unless of course you want to hark back to the Fin de siècle period. Imperialism was in full swing so that's controversial.
- andreiii 4y ago
  All the prosperity in the non-liberal World is just a gift from the Western Liberal world. There would be not much prosperity in India or China w/o Western companies outsourcing operations over there. Once a middle class is built things start rolling by themselves but til then let's not kid ourselves that the prosperity in these iliberal countries was home-built.
  - trasz3 4y ago
    Yeah, look at all the prosperity the liberal East India Company brought there.
andreygrehov 4y ago
I somewhat disagree. To me, it looks like many countries are trying to diverge from the sphere of influence of the US, and US doesn’t want that happening. When the big media portrays every other country as dangerous, authoritarian, etc., it’s always interesting to seek for motivation behind the claims. As a quick example, Brooklyn is much more dangerous than pretty much anywhere in Moscow. I can’t imagine NYTimes or any other large publication say that. I wonder if China is perfectly safe and less “authoritarian” as it’s shown on prime time.
- JumpCrisscross 4y ago
  > countries are trying to diverge from the sphere of influence of the US It’s the BBC. Also, India is drifting towards the American sphere of influence. It’s historically been between non-aligned and anti-American.
  - MichaelZuo 4y ago
    They're trying to extract the maximum amount of concessions by playing in the middle.
- cafard 4y ago
  Some portions of Brooklyn are much more dangerous than pretty much anywhere in Moscow. Some portions are not particularly dangerous. As far as I know, conscription is the major Muscovite danger talked up in the NY Times.
- AbrahamParangi 4y ago
  I was curious about that stat on crime rates in Moscow vs Brooklyn but I can’t find any evidence that it is true. In 2022 there were 138 homicides in Brooklyn which comes out to 4.98 homicides per 100k residents. In comparison in Moscow Oblast there were 6.9 homicides per 100k residents (in 2017, which is the latest year I can find information for this stat). So at least by homicides, Moscow seems more dangerous.
  - iudqnolq 4y ago
_fat_santa 4y ago
I think they were always here, the difference is now we have a 24hr news spotlight on them.
miohtama 4y ago
Democracy can be declining or increasing depending on the yard stick and the region you are looking at. On average, democracy is declining globally if measured with popular Democracy Index. More on this The Economist article https://archive.ph/FJfMU https://archive.ph/FJfMU
CameronNemo 4y ago
I am not sure about worldwide. I see no trends in Latin America or Africa. Notably, the Mexican president recently decided not to pursue constitutional changes to lengthen his rule, despite his supporters calling for that. And despite a stressful transfer of power from Bolsonaro to Lula in Brazil, it did go through without major bloodshed. But Israel, Turkiye, and India are in a bad state. Netanyahu, Erdogan, and Modi are quickly tightening their grips on their respective governments. Also I know China is not considered to be a democracy, but the past few leaders before Xi only lasted about 10 years each, while Xi is seeking a much longer rule. I am not aware of any major changes in Europe, or the rest of Asia. Israel, Turkiye, India, China, and Russia are heavy weights, though. So definitely something to watch for moving forward.
- arp242 4y ago
  It depends a bit which time-frame you use as well. Taiwan and Indonesia have become more democratic since the 90s; Balkan countries (former Yugoslavia) are doing mostly okay today. Possibly some other countries as well. Russia had a "decade of democracy", which also failed quite spectacularly. It doesn't really have a long democratic tradition that you see in other countries.

Is it just me, or are authoritarian regimes on the rise world-wide?

madaxe_again 4y ago

Yes. We technologists have made it far easier for them to crack down on dissent than ever before.

ignoramous 4y ago
You'd be surprised by just how many Modi (and right-wing) supporters exist among influential Indians in the Silicon Valley. They're not even subtle about it on Twitter.
- paganel 4y ago
  I was actually wondering about that yesterday. It seems like the West, and the US more specifically, isn't capable anymore of physically reproducing/replacing its technocratic elites, which in this day and age mostly means its tech elites. Which made me wonder what would happen in case of a direct US vs China war when in some companies 20% to 30% to even 50% of the engineers have some close family connections on the Mainland. Will those engineers and tech people be ok with seeing China losing and their close family back home physically hurting? What would happen if the US starts playing it rough with India? When you've got the CEOs of some of the biggest US tech companies being of Indian descent themselves, not to mention the large percentage of Indian engineers active in the Valley and not only. It was way easier to set up the Manhattan project when many of the people involved had escaped physical annihilation here in Europe (against them and against their close family), but will the US be able to reproduce a future Manhattan project (let's say in AI) using and employing people whose families back home (in China, most probably, in India, as a possibility) would be directly and life-threatening affected by their work? I have my doubts.
  - mikehotel 4y ago
    Many Indians in America or Americans of Indian descent disagree with the rise of fascism in India. Of course many also fall into the default nationalistic mode and become defensive. Actions to take against a ruling party that has widespread support from the police, legislature, judiciary, and media are limited. In India, about 15% of Indians are Christians, Muslims, or other non Hindus. And among Hindus, about 40% are Dalits. The majority of Indians in India are threatened by this rise in fascist actions and rhetoric. And yet, even against all odds, a few people in India stand up for justice. The silence or inaction of the majority should not be criticized too harshly since it is not easy to put everything on the line. But those that do deserve all of humanity’s appreciation. Under Modi, India’s press is not as free anymore - April 2, 2020 - Vindu Goel and Jeffrey Gettleman https://archive.ph/zPhMH https://archive.ph/zPhMH Jailed Indian journalist gets bail almost two years after arrest - September 10, 2022 - Shaikh Azizur Rahman https://archive.ph/5sxUA https://archive.ph/5sxUA Rana Ayyub, journalist and Modi critic, barred from leaving India - March 30, 2022 - Aakash Hassan https://archive.ph/Ibu7S https://archive.ph/Ibu7S
    - paganel 4y ago
      > Many Indians in America or Americans of Indian descent disagree with the rise of fascism in India I'm aware of that, as I'm also aware that many Russians (especially the educated tech elites) are against the current government in Moscow. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of the guys calling the shots in Washington, as in, what measures should be taken in regards to the Chinese very-well represented tech diaspora in case of a war against China? (and, as I said, if some skirmishes involving the current Indian leadership were to start). When it came to Russia it looks like the the US and the West went all in, almost all Russians were treated as guilty by default unless. I'm wondering if the same actions will be taken against the Chinese working for the big US tech firms (or against the Indians). I'm saying that that would be harder for the US to carry out (compared to the current shitting on the Russian diaspora).
      - naravara 4y ago
        Where did you get 40%? The proportion of scheduled castes is somewhere in the mid-20s, you only get into the mid- to high-30s if you include "Other Backwards Castes," who aren't Dalits but are able to make a general case that they were low on the status hierarchy historically. But, cynically, that whole framework is mostly just a way for the numerically large smallholder classes to create reservations, that were originally meant to correct for untouchability, for themselves through a sort of caste-based patronage politics. There are also lower and higher castes among Indian Muslims and Christians as well. It's a indigenous form of social stratification, more analogous to how we think of ethnicity or race, that's independent of peoples' confessional identity.
- cafard 4y ago
  In Washington, DC, there was a big rally against the revised Indian citizenship laws, all participants looking plausibly Indian. Of course, I have no idea of how influential the participants are.
- rayiner 4y ago
  Modi is relatively popular among Indian Americans. Less popular than people in India, but more popular than you’d expect given Indian Americans’ voting patterns: https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/02/09/how-do-indian-americans-view-india-results-from-2020-indian-american-attitudes-survey-pub-83800 https://carnegieendowment.org/2021/02/09/how-do-indian-ameri... > The Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is the most popular political party among Indian Americans. One-third of respondents favor the ruling BJP while just 12 percent identify with the Congress Party > Indian Americans hold broadly favorable views of Modi. Nearly half of all Indian Americans approve of Modi’s performance as prime minister This goes to a central contradiction which I’ve observed among Americans originally from the subcontinent: “liberalism for thee but not for me.”
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
There isn't really any "we technologists" that can collectively decide to stop the madness.

jack_riminton 4y ago

Yes, I think it's related to the waining political and economic power of the West and buoyed by Putin, Xi Jinping etc getting away with whatever they want

zo1 4y ago
Interesting choices. How about we talk about other countries that get away with various bits of blatant authoritarianism, sexism and racism each with their own unique take: Australia, Saudi Arabia, South Africa, Germany, etc.
- jack_riminton 4y ago
  [flagged]
  - zo1 4y ago
    South Africa, and it's quite grey weather atm. We're just about to enter winter. But thank you for asking how I'm discriminated against based on the color of my skin by government laws.
  - briandear 4y ago
    No place for this nonsense on HN.
gorilla0 4y ago
[flagged]
- bovermyer 4y ago
  You're aware that threats of violence, even vague ones, are against the terms of use of this community, right?
  - gorilla0 4y ago
    [dead]

dustedcodes 4y ago

Yes, extreme ideologies (left and right wing) and authoritarian views are on the rise because of three factors playing out at the same time: 1. Globalisation showing its cracks and becoming increasingly clear to be the reason for the skyrocketing of inequality and the widening of the wealth gap between the rich and the poor 2. People waking up to the fact that the West and the East are equally bad with a constant stream of bad leaders who make bad decisions for their own riches and for the huge hypocrisy as well as the apparent propaganda to which we are all (West and East) are subjected by our own governments and mainstream media outlets 3. Internet and social media making 1. and 2. extremely visible to everyone in every corner of the world As a result the world is becoming a lot more cynic on a much wider scale than ever before, people are becoming increasingly more selfish because they see that this is how the world operates as a whole without any shame and people are therefore increasingly more inclined to give their vote to people who "offer" radically different views to the status quo.

BLKNSLVR 4y ago
Where politicians lead, society will follow. If politicians are overtly selfish, it should be no surprise that society begins to shift in that same direction. If it's ok for them, gimme some of that sugar too! Having said that, maybe it's only the loud minority amplified by a desperate mainstream media making it appear that way?
oblio 4y ago
> People waking up to the fact that the West and the East are equally bad You probably want to define what "East" is in this context. If East is Russia + China, it's trivially easy to prove that the West is better for its own citizens. 1. Economic levels in the West. 2. Respect for citizens' lives in the West. I'm from a country that used to be in the Eastern Bloc, and let me tell you, nobody respects its citizens' lives like the collective West. Yes, the West is still horrible for many groups for human dignity, and yes, they don't always respect their citizens' lives, but boy, are they an improvement over most of the rest of the world. And we have the numbers, check out military casualties for each side in various wars. The West has by far fewer military casualties than China or Russia have. And that mentality permeates everywhere. Because if you don't care if your troops die in a war, you won't care if they die in a mine or an office building. Before you reply, keep in mind I'm talking about statistics.

eunos 4y ago

The old mantra "Ouside of Liberalism, there will be no prosperity" showing its crack. Western Liberal world order is not invincible anymore.

andybak 4y ago
Are you referring to economic Liberalism (classic or otherwise) or something else?
- eunos 4y ago
  Not economic liberalism, more political liberalism.
  - andybak 4y ago
    The period it seemed invincible was fairly brief. During the cold war, the West wasn't especially "liberal" in it's interactions with the rest of the world. Post cold-war there was maybe a few years or less of Fukuyama-esque optimism. The Arab Spring looked positive and ended with most places worse than they started. So - not sure there was much of a window of invincibility. Unless of course you want to hark back to the Fin de siècle period. Imperialism was in full swing so that's controversial.
andreiii 4y ago
All the prosperity in the non-liberal World is just a gift from the Western Liberal world. There would be not much prosperity in India or China w/o Western companies outsourcing operations over there. Once a middle class is built things start rolling by themselves but til then let's not kid ourselves that the prosperity in these iliberal countries was home-built.
- trasz3 4y ago
  Yeah, look at all the prosperity the liberal East India Company brought there.

andreygrehov 4y ago

I somewhat disagree. To me, it looks like many countries are trying to diverge from the sphere of influence of the US, and US doesn’t want that happening. When the big media portrays every other country as dangerous, authoritarian, etc., it’s always interesting to seek for motivation behind the claims. As a quick example, Brooklyn is much more dangerous than pretty much anywhere in Moscow. I can’t imagine NYTimes or any other large publication say that. I wonder if China is perfectly safe and less “authoritarian” as it’s shown on prime time.

JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> countries are trying to diverge from the sphere of influence of the US It’s the BBC. Also, India is drifting towards the American sphere of influence. It’s historically been between non-aligned and anti-American.
- MichaelZuo 4y ago
  They're trying to extract the maximum amount of concessions by playing in the middle.
cafard 4y ago
Some portions of Brooklyn are much more dangerous than pretty much anywhere in Moscow. Some portions are not particularly dangerous. As far as I know, conscription is the major Muscovite danger talked up in the NY Times.
AbrahamParangi 4y ago
I was curious about that stat on crime rates in Moscow vs Brooklyn but I can’t find any evidence that it is true. In 2022 there were 138 homicides in Brooklyn which comes out to 4.98 homicides per 100k residents. In comparison in Moscow Oblast there were 6.9 homicides per 100k residents (in 2017, which is the latest year I can find information for this stat). So at least by homicides, Moscow seems more dangerous.
- iudqnolq 4y ago

_fat_santa 4y ago

I think they were always here, the difference is now we have a 24hr news spotlight on them.

miohtama 4y ago

Democracy can be declining or increasing depending on the yard stick and the region you are looking at. On average, democracy is declining globally if measured with popular Democracy Index. More on this The Economist article https://archive.ph/FJfMU https://archive.ph/FJfMU

CameronNemo 4y ago

I am not sure about worldwide. I see no trends in Latin America or Africa. Notably, the Mexican president recently decided not to pursue constitutional changes to lengthen his rule, despite his supporters calling for that. And despite a stressful transfer of power from Bolsonaro to Lula in Brazil, it did go through without major bloodshed. But Israel, Turkiye, and India are in a bad state. Netanyahu, Erdogan, and Modi are quickly tightening their grips on their respective governments. Also I know China is not considered to be a democracy, but the past few leaders before Xi only lasted about 10 years each, while Xi is seeking a much longer rule. I am not aware of any major changes in Europe, or the rest of Asia. Israel, Turkiye, India, China, and Russia are heavy weights, though. So definitely something to watch for moving forward.

arp242 4y ago
It depends a bit which time-frame you use as well. Taiwan and Indonesia have become more democratic since the 90s; Balkan countries (former Yugoslavia) are doing mostly okay today. Possibly some other countries as well. Russia had a "decade of democracy", which also failed quite spectacularly. It doesn't really have a long democratic tradition that you see in other countries.