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Stupid question: But were does a normal citizen buy redox flow batteries? I googled far and wide, and those are just not sold in my area to end consumers (germa

Stupid question: But were does a normal citizen buy redox flow batteries? I googled far and wide, and those are just not sold in my area to end consumers (germany). Has somebody else a website were you can order those? I can order normal battery packs just fine, but the chemical storage ones (https://redflow.com/ https://redflow.com/) are vannishing into silence here in germany, for unknown reasons.

butler14 4y ago
These are new to me. Would you mind elaborating on why these specifically, rather than conventional LIon?
- qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
  They have infinite loading cycles, they are rather bulky, basically a fluid medium is charged and discharged. This allows for the storage capacity to easily scale (the generator remains, the tanks increase). In addition the storage fluid can be rather friendly substance from a environment perspective (some use drinkable salty water). And cheap. And if you have a old pool or a old oil tank in your house you are basically halfway there regarding installation. Its basically chemical storage of energy, allowing for the (re)use of preexisting installations.
  - JackMcMack 4y ago
    I was skeptical, the site seemed to only show renders, nothing practical. It looks real though: https://simonhackett.com/2021/05/23/redflow-gen3-zbm/ https://simonhackett.com/2021/05/23/redflow-gen3-zbm/ Datasheet: https://redflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RDF1199-Redflow-ZBM3-Datasheet-WEB-SML.pdf https://redflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RDF1199-Redfl... Nothing on price
pjc50 4y ago
I don't think I've ever seen them aimed at the retail market? The downside of flow batteries is that they're no longer solid state - they have mechanical pumping elements that require maintenance. I've only ever heard them discussed in the context of grid or industrial sized units, where the value provided by scale is enough to make the servicing economically worthwhile. Which chemistry manages to use drinkable water for storage?
strken 4y ago
They're usually the size of a shipping container and up, aren't they? I thought they only started being cost-effective once the electrolyte containers reached a certain size.
scythe 4y ago
Such batteries are not really marketed. The economic case for them relies on the market for lithium being saturated — but the market is not saturated. You can't make a profit selling lithium alternatives when we're not presently close to being out of lithium, even if we might hit a supply crunch at some point. Gelion in Australia makes a zinc-bromine battery with an 87% RTE per their IPO filings. I've been watching them closely, but I've been hesitant to invest in a company whose products probably have years before they're in serious demand. Most flow batteries are well below 87% RTE.
Cipater 4y ago
Is this legitimate? https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VRFB-battery-energy-storage-system-Vanadium_1600223888387.html https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VRFB-battery-energy-s...
criddell 4y ago
This page says they start at about $8000 https://www.powerinfotoday.com/hydroelectric/redflow-reduces-zbm-battery-cost-by-over-50-and-drops-below-grid-price/ https://www.powerinfotoday.com/hydroelectric/redflow-reduces...

butler14 4y ago

These are new to me. Would you mind elaborating on why these specifically, rather than conventional LIon?

qikInNdOutReply 4y ago
They have infinite loading cycles, they are rather bulky, basically a fluid medium is charged and discharged. This allows for the storage capacity to easily scale (the generator remains, the tanks increase). In addition the storage fluid can be rather friendly substance from a environment perspective (some use drinkable salty water). And cheap. And if you have a old pool or a old oil tank in your house you are basically halfway there regarding installation. Its basically chemical storage of energy, allowing for the (re)use of preexisting installations.
- JackMcMack 4y ago
  I was skeptical, the site seemed to only show renders, nothing practical. It looks real though: https://simonhackett.com/2021/05/23/redflow-gen3-zbm/ https://simonhackett.com/2021/05/23/redflow-gen3-zbm/ Datasheet: https://redflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RDF1199-Redflow-ZBM3-Datasheet-WEB-SML.pdf https://redflow.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/RDF1199-Redfl... Nothing on price

pjc50 4y ago

I don't think I've ever seen them aimed at the retail market? The downside of flow batteries is that they're no longer solid state - they have mechanical pumping elements that require maintenance. I've only ever heard them discussed in the context of grid or industrial sized units, where the value provided by scale is enough to make the servicing economically worthwhile. Which chemistry manages to use drinkable water for storage?

strken 4y ago

They're usually the size of a shipping container and up, aren't they? I thought they only started being cost-effective once the electrolyte containers reached a certain size.

scythe 4y ago

Such batteries are not really marketed. The economic case for them relies on the market for lithium being saturated — but the market is not saturated. You can't make a profit selling lithium alternatives when we're not presently close to being out of lithium, even if we might hit a supply crunch at some point. Gelion in Australia makes a zinc-bromine battery with an 87% RTE per their IPO filings. I've been watching them closely, but I've been hesitant to invest in a company whose products probably have years before they're in serious demand. Most flow batteries are well below 87% RTE.

Cipater 4y ago

Is this legitimate? https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VRFB-battery-energy-storage-system-Vanadium_1600223888387.html https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/VRFB-battery-energy-s...

criddell 4y ago

This page says they start at about $8000 https://www.powerinfotoday.com/hydroelectric/redflow-reduces-zbm-battery-cost-by-over-50-and-drops-below-grid-price/ https://www.powerinfotoday.com/hydroelectric/redflow-reduces...