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In almost the entire EU and especially here in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EX

In almost the entire EU and especially here in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less. As someone with decent insulation and solar panels etc, this was exactly the time those investments should have paid off and for other people to be left behind because they refused to take basic measures. Instead they've been bailed out and progress has been put off for another decade. And this sums up the whole of our green policy for the last 40years: we absolutely must do something, unless people don't want to, which they don't.

LemmyInThePub 4y ago
> in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less No. The government stepped in because poor people (and many not so poor) could not afford to heat their homes over winter. It is (was) an emergency measure. The transition to green energy is well under way in the UK, regardless of temporary subsidies.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  In the UK, they capped the price of energy per kWh. So they bailed out everyone, rich, poor and middle alike. And the more energy you used, the more support you got. So richer and more wasteful households got the MOST support. Saying "but the poor" while throwing money at the rich is pretty self-contradictory IMHO. If they'd at least made cash payments, even if it was the same per household, it would at least have incentivised people not to waste energy. But no, it specifically rewarded people for increasing their consumption.
  - butler14 4y ago
    I agree that the incentives were off on paper But is there any evidence that's been the case, that people have increased their consumption? Anecdotally, I can't think of anyone I know that hasn't actively reduced their usage
  - LemmyInThePub 4y ago
    > So richer and more wasteful households got the MOST support. I do agree the implementation of the scheme was very poor..... ....the reasons for which are down to our current governments unfortunate mix of poor competence and fruity ideology (thank $Deity Liss Truss wasn't around for too long!)
  - talideon 4y ago
    This is partially a consequence of the bonkers way in which electricity is priced in the UK: it's costed based off of fuel prices rather than the cost per unit to produce the power in question. This leads to situations where the UK might have plenty of electricity being produced by means other than natural gas (such as renewables), but it's still all costed as if it were produced by natural gas. And yes, some kind of flat cash payment that advantaged poorer people would've been better. And much as I loathe the Tories, I doubt they took the route they did because they wanted to give money to the rich in this case, or even encourage electricity usage growth. Assume incompetence before malice: they needed to do something to staunch the flow, and a price cap per unit was something they could do there and then without engaging extra bureaucracy, which a cash payment would've required.
  - ZeroGravitas 4y ago
    The energy cap was already in place in the UK. It contributed to the problems as the price of gas spiked. It's a bad policy, but it's from the same government that paid people to eat out at restaurants during a viral pandemic, rather than a specific response to the war.
TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago
Do you mean to imply that you're ok with UK citizens freezing to death because they can't afford insulation and heating?
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  Yes, I am personally advocating genocide which is the only alternative to paying people to waste energy...
ben_w 4y ago
Vime's boots. I'm not sure about here in the EU, but the UK has a cost of living crisis such that millions[0][1][2] are regularly skipping meals. People in that situation don't have the spare money be able to install PV or upgrade their insulation. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/one-four-britons-skip-meals-due-inflation-survey-shows-2022-05-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/one-four-britons-skip-meals... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jan/26/uk-students-skipping-meals-because-of-cost-of-living-crisis https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jan/26/uk-student... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/18/millions-forced-to-skip-meals-as-uk-cost-of-living-crisis-deepens https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/18/millions-for...
- stef25 4y ago
  It's unfathomable to me that people in the UK are skipping meals. If you buy rice & beans in bulk you can fill your belly for less than £1 I'm sure. Quick look on the Tesco website - bread: £0.39 £0.05/100g - chicken soup: £0.60 £0.15/100g - 1KG rice: £0.48 £0.48/kg - Baked beans: £0.50 £1.19/kg - Kidney beans: £0.59 £2.46/kg DR.WT - Tinned mackerel: £0.85 £0.97/100g DR.WT (sardines are half the price) - Eggs: £0.20 / piece - 500g pasta: £0.41 £0.82/kg People are probably just used to eating take-out or buying £8 microwave dishes for the whole family and don't know how to cook on a budget. If you're really desperate, markets usually put aside vegetables that are too old to sell but you can make soup out of them no problem. This all isn't very appealing or even healthy (although compared to microwave or takeout ...), but at least you're not going hungry. If you can only send your kid to school with 1 slice of bread, you have other problems than money.
  - pjc50 4y ago
    Someone posts this comment every time the subject is mentioned; someone else posts the Orwell essay from the 1940s which replies to the exact same discussion; and yet the kids are still turning up hungry. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/03/expand-free-school-meals-to-combat-rise-in-malnutrition-say-health-experts https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/03/expand-fre...
  - LemmyInThePub 4y ago
butler14 4y ago
This is a particularly cynical view from someone privileged enough to be able to afford solar panels. I have panels too. But I also have friends that can't pay their energy bill this month.
- LatteLazy 4y ago
  My solar panels were free, I got them in 2021. The local council installed them. They came the same week I applied and were really pleased to do it because they were under pressure as they're meant to get X household a month to hit an annual target and were badly behind. https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/news/2021/free-solar-panels-barking-and-dagenham-homeowners-through-green-homes-grant https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/news/2021/free-solar-panels-barking-... (there is now an income limit which I disagree with but whatever...) I told my neighbours and enthusiastically recommended them. They "weren't sure". Here we are 2 years later and they're concerned about energy prices. The problem here is not and should not be money. I'd be all for free insulation, solar panels, better boilers, etc. And we rightly already do all that. Then people say no because doing things is scary and why bother when you'll just be bailed out? That's the "small-c conservative" mindset we need to get out of. It causes 101 other social issues too but now I am just ranting. I hope the link above inspires others to get them too
  - throwaway4aday 4y ago
    Is your house running off of the power the panels output or are you being paid for the power they generate?
    - LatteLazy 4y ago
      If there is excess it goes back to the grid. I looked at a battery pack etc (more for reliability than profit...) but it didn't seem economically viable. I think if I had a wind turbine or if they keep cutting the feed in prices it would be?

LemmyInThePub 4y ago

> in the UK, governments have stepped in to spend huge amounts subsidising energy (including gas), SPECIFICALLY AND EXPRESSLY to that people don't use any less No. The government stepped in because poor people (and many not so poor) could not afford to heat their homes over winter. It is (was) an emergency measure. The transition to green energy is well under way in the UK, regardless of temporary subsidies.

LatteLazy 4y ago
In the UK, they capped the price of energy per kWh. So they bailed out everyone, rich, poor and middle alike. And the more energy you used, the more support you got. So richer and more wasteful households got the MOST support. Saying "but the poor" while throwing money at the rich is pretty self-contradictory IMHO. If they'd at least made cash payments, even if it was the same per household, it would at least have incentivised people not to waste energy. But no, it specifically rewarded people for increasing their consumption.
- butler14 4y ago
  I agree that the incentives were off on paper But is there any evidence that's been the case, that people have increased their consumption? Anecdotally, I can't think of anyone I know that hasn't actively reduced their usage
- LemmyInThePub 4y ago
  > So richer and more wasteful households got the MOST support. I do agree the implementation of the scheme was very poor..... ....the reasons for which are down to our current governments unfortunate mix of poor competence and fruity ideology (thank $Deity Liss Truss wasn't around for too long!)
- talideon 4y ago
  This is partially a consequence of the bonkers way in which electricity is priced in the UK: it's costed based off of fuel prices rather than the cost per unit to produce the power in question. This leads to situations where the UK might have plenty of electricity being produced by means other than natural gas (such as renewables), but it's still all costed as if it were produced by natural gas. And yes, some kind of flat cash payment that advantaged poorer people would've been better. And much as I loathe the Tories, I doubt they took the route they did because they wanted to give money to the rich in this case, or even encourage electricity usage growth. Assume incompetence before malice: they needed to do something to staunch the flow, and a price cap per unit was something they could do there and then without engaging extra bureaucracy, which a cash payment would've required.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  The energy cap was already in place in the UK. It contributed to the problems as the price of gas spiked. It's a bad policy, but it's from the same government that paid people to eat out at restaurants during a viral pandemic, rather than a specific response to the war.

TheSpiceIsLife 4y ago

Do you mean to imply that you're ok with UK citizens freezing to death because they can't afford insulation and heating?

LatteLazy 4y ago
Yes, I am personally advocating genocide which is the only alternative to paying people to waste energy...

ben_w 4y ago

Vime's boots. I'm not sure about here in the EU, but the UK has a cost of living crisis such that millions[0][1][2] are regularly skipping meals. People in that situation don't have the spare money be able to install PV or upgrade their insulation. [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/one-four-britons-skip-meals-due-inflation-survey-shows-2022-05-17/ https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/one-four-britons-skip-meals... [1] https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jan/26/uk-students-skipping-meals-because-of-cost-of-living-crisis https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/jan/26/uk-student... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/18/millions-forced-to-skip-meals-as-uk-cost-of-living-crisis-deepens https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/oct/18/millions-for...

stef25 4y ago
It's unfathomable to me that people in the UK are skipping meals. If you buy rice & beans in bulk you can fill your belly for less than £1 I'm sure. Quick look on the Tesco website - bread: £0.39 £0.05/100g - chicken soup: £0.60 £0.15/100g - 1KG rice: £0.48 £0.48/kg - Baked beans: £0.50 £1.19/kg - Kidney beans: £0.59 £2.46/kg DR.WT - Tinned mackerel: £0.85 £0.97/100g DR.WT (sardines are half the price) - Eggs: £0.20 / piece - 500g pasta: £0.41 £0.82/kg People are probably just used to eating take-out or buying £8 microwave dishes for the whole family and don't know how to cook on a budget. If you're really desperate, markets usually put aside vegetables that are too old to sell but you can make soup out of them no problem. This all isn't very appealing or even healthy (although compared to microwave or takeout ...), but at least you're not going hungry. If you can only send your kid to school with 1 slice of bread, you have other problems than money.
- pjc50 4y ago
  Someone posts this comment every time the subject is mentioned; someone else posts the Orwell essay from the 1940s which replies to the exact same discussion; and yet the kids are still turning up hungry. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/03/expand-free-school-meals-to-combat-rise-in-malnutrition-say-health-experts https://www.theguardian.com/education/2022/nov/03/expand-fre...
- LemmyInThePub 4y ago

butler14 4y ago

This is a particularly cynical view from someone privileged enough to be able to afford solar panels. I have panels too. But I also have friends that can't pay their energy bill this month.

LatteLazy 4y ago
My solar panels were free, I got them in 2021. The local council installed them. They came the same week I applied and were really pleased to do it because they were under pressure as they're meant to get X household a month to hit an annual target and were badly behind. https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/news/2021/free-solar-panels-barking-and-dagenham-homeowners-through-green-homes-grant https://www.lbbd.gov.uk/news/2021/free-solar-panels-barking-... (there is now an income limit which I disagree with but whatever...) I told my neighbours and enthusiastically recommended them. They "weren't sure". Here we are 2 years later and they're concerned about energy prices. The problem here is not and should not be money. I'd be all for free insulation, solar panels, better boilers, etc. And we rightly already do all that. Then people say no because doing things is scary and why bother when you'll just be bailed out? That's the "small-c conservative" mindset we need to get out of. It causes 101 other social issues too but now I am just ranting. I hope the link above inspires others to get them too
- throwaway4aday 4y ago
  Is your house running off of the power the panels output or are you being paid for the power they generate?
  - LatteLazy 4y ago
    If there is excess it goes back to the grid. I looked at a battery pack etc (more for reliability than profit...) but it didn't seem economically viable. I think if I had a wind turbine or if they keep cutting the feed in prices it would be?