5 ms·

I hear you. I'm one of those people too, or I was (maybe). What got me wasn't even the core failures themselves, but all the lies and pretense about it. If we a

by Lutger 4y ago

I hear you. I'm one of those people too, or I was (maybe). What got me wasn't even the core failures themselves, but all the lies and pretense about it. If we are to ignore our fundamental flaws in order for sales to score their next big hit, at least be honest. Just admit we only really care about quarterly results. Don't pretend we are on some wonderful mission instead of the duct taping ragtag conmans that we really are. I can handle the mess, kind of, I surely can't handle all the falsehoods. But people do need some level of chill to hold it all together. If there isn't some sunny shiny thing on the horizon at least, then it is too hard to put in any effort and get out of bed. The worse the situation is, the greater the need for soothing. I have a personal law that says something like: the level of organizational dysfunction is directly and inversely proportional to the degree to which reality is allowed to disturb a positive story. You could call it institutional codependency. In really dysfunctional organizations you will find shocking levels of denial and incongruence between the state of affairs and what can be spoken about without being sidelined. This breeds bitterness, because there is an actual and insurmountable difference in needs. Some people can't thrive in a minefield of falsehoods. Being earnest is an actual need, for some people it is more important than being fun and positive. For others people, it is the other way around. The biggest lesson for me was that there really is a difference between organizations in this kind of dysfunction. The trick is to kick yourself in the butt and move around. Bitterness is just a signal you stayed too long in a context where you are stifled. Even if the ideal context doesn't exist, there are likely places where you are vastly more appreciated and it is worth the effort to try and find them.

roflyear 4y ago
Aren't people who value fun and positivity over sincerity by definition shallow and fake?
- Lutger 4y ago
  Maybe, yes. I tend to agree. From their point of view however, the people who don't value fun as much are whiny and annoying, and maybe we are but probably because we aren't heard. Well, speaking for myself, I tend to be much less whiny about things if I have the feeling someone takes me seriously.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    I value fun, but I think my problem is I go to work to WORK. You would think companies would want this. I accept some level of "not work" because that is life, but when I'm actively being prevented from doing work due to dysfunction, I get really upset. I guess I should just be "overemployed" so I can retire earlier LOL.
- dasil003 4y ago
  You’re not wrong, but there’s nuance here. A pessimist will often hide behind the shield of sincerity. But they are often no more capable of fixing problems than the cheerleader, which means not only are they ineffectual, they make everyone else feel bad along the way. Ultimately you want competent, realistic and upbeat.
  - Lutger 4y ago
    I agree, actually. Bitterness doesn't solve anything. Dysfunctional orgs are usually beyond salvation. For me, the question is: can I say the deadline is unrealistic and off by 2x as a matter of fact and can we discuss how to deal with that, as a matter of fact, not blaming anyone? Just the facts. Sometimes this is impossible because the mere mention of it makes me the pessimist and is putting everyone in a bad mood.
    - roflyear 4y ago
      Yeah. I do agree that if you find yourself being bitter, it is the org, usually, not you. > can I say the deadline is unrealistic and off by 2x as a matter of fact and can we discuss how to deal with that, as a matter of fact, not blaming anyone? Just the facts. I'd hope so, but at my company the conversation would either end (CTO would say "I got to go join another meeting") or it would be interpreted as you "saying no."
      - dasil003 4y ago
        One thing that really came into focus for me once I got into my 40s and had had a chance to see all different manner of successful and dysfunctional teams from many different vantage points is that any binary assessment of an org as good or bad is overly reductive. Most orgs have good sides and bad sides, and a mature perspective is to either do what one can do improve the bad parts, or cut bait and find a new org. I realize this is a privileged perspective, but competent software engineers have options. I truly believe that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem—not in a malicious way, but systemic dysfunction is far more common than malintent, so if you truly see no path in contributing towards a better work environment then what are you doing with your life?
- 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
  I don't think so. I value fun and positivity and I think I'm the opposite of fake. I don't have patience for being fake. I'll attend every social event, I clock out roughly on time, and I do what's needed of me without making a fuss. Want that stupid feature? Sure, as long as it's not morally reprehensible, I'll build it. What's any of that got to do with being fake? I don't suck up, and do things for the sake of promotion, I don't lie about things. If you ask for my opinion, I'll share it, even if it's negative. I don't think that makes me unfun though.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    I'm not talking about a "stupid feature" I'm talking about your CTO saying something like "let's move to containerized SQLite instances for all our databases instead of using sql server" etc.. Just, unnecessary, arguably-insane things. I don't give a fuck if you want a stupid feature. That isn't my job. My job is, however, to give input into if I think certain changes to the platform are going to be detrimental. Just saying "yeah bossss!!!" to everything is not my job, and would be shallow and fake.
    - 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
      Oh yeah, if my boss wants to make a stupid technical decision I'd fight him on that. Fortunately my manager is smart.
rkachowski 4y ago
I don't agree with all of this, but I feel it's an excellent comment that touches on the need for a balance between sincerity and good vibes. I'm currently in the situation where dysfunction is turning me bitter, and recognising that's not what I want.
nlawalker 4y ago
This whole article and comment section, but especially this thread and the parent, made think of "How to Get Promoted", particularly the advice to "be happy and easy-going", "don't make anyone look bad" and "perform rituals enthusiastically." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24618707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24618707

by Lutger 4y ago

roflyear 4y ago

Aren't people who value fun and positivity over sincerity by definition shallow and fake?

Lutger 4y ago
Maybe, yes. I tend to agree. From their point of view however, the people who don't value fun as much are whiny and annoying, and maybe we are but probably because we aren't heard. Well, speaking for myself, I tend to be much less whiny about things if I have the feeling someone takes me seriously.
- roflyear 4y ago
  I value fun, but I think my problem is I go to work to WORK. You would think companies would want this. I accept some level of "not work" because that is life, but when I'm actively being prevented from doing work due to dysfunction, I get really upset. I guess I should just be "overemployed" so I can retire earlier LOL.
dasil003 4y ago
You’re not wrong, but there’s nuance here. A pessimist will often hide behind the shield of sincerity. But they are often no more capable of fixing problems than the cheerleader, which means not only are they ineffectual, they make everyone else feel bad along the way. Ultimately you want competent, realistic and upbeat.
- Lutger 4y ago
  I agree, actually. Bitterness doesn't solve anything. Dysfunctional orgs are usually beyond salvation. For me, the question is: can I say the deadline is unrealistic and off by 2x as a matter of fact and can we discuss how to deal with that, as a matter of fact, not blaming anyone? Just the facts. Sometimes this is impossible because the mere mention of it makes me the pessimist and is putting everyone in a bad mood.
  - roflyear 4y ago
    Yeah. I do agree that if you find yourself being bitter, it is the org, usually, not you. > can I say the deadline is unrealistic and off by 2x as a matter of fact and can we discuss how to deal with that, as a matter of fact, not blaming anyone? Just the facts. I'd hope so, but at my company the conversation would either end (CTO would say "I got to go join another meeting") or it would be interpreted as you "saying no."
    - dasil003 4y ago
      One thing that really came into focus for me once I got into my 40s and had had a chance to see all different manner of successful and dysfunctional teams from many different vantage points is that any binary assessment of an org as good or bad is overly reductive. Most orgs have good sides and bad sides, and a mature perspective is to either do what one can do improve the bad parts, or cut bait and find a new org. I realize this is a privileged perspective, but competent software engineers have options. I truly believe that if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem—not in a malicious way, but systemic dysfunction is far more common than malintent, so if you truly see no path in contributing towards a better work environment then what are you doing with your life?
8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
I don't think so. I value fun and positivity and I think I'm the opposite of fake. I don't have patience for being fake. I'll attend every social event, I clock out roughly on time, and I do what's needed of me without making a fuss. Want that stupid feature? Sure, as long as it's not morally reprehensible, I'll build it. What's any of that got to do with being fake? I don't suck up, and do things for the sake of promotion, I don't lie about things. If you ask for my opinion, I'll share it, even if it's negative. I don't think that makes me unfun though.
- roflyear 4y ago
  I'm not talking about a "stupid feature" I'm talking about your CTO saying something like "let's move to containerized SQLite instances for all our databases instead of using sql server" etc.. Just, unnecessary, arguably-insane things. I don't give a fuck if you want a stupid feature. That isn't my job. My job is, however, to give input into if I think certain changes to the platform are going to be detrimental. Just saying "yeah bossss!!!" to everything is not my job, and would be shallow and fake.
  - 8n4vidtmkvmk 4y ago
    Oh yeah, if my boss wants to make a stupid technical decision I'd fight him on that. Fortunately my manager is smart.

rkachowski 4y ago

I don't agree with all of this, but I feel it's an excellent comment that touches on the need for a balance between sincerity and good vibes. I'm currently in the situation where dysfunction is turning me bitter, and recognising that's not what I want.

nlawalker 4y ago

This whole article and comment section, but especially this thread and the parent, made think of "How to Get Promoted", particularly the advice to "be happy and easy-going", "don't make anyone look bad" and "perform rituals enthusiastically." https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24618707 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24618707