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From my non-US perspective, this kind of views that China has somehow done something to disrupt world order look like obvious delusions, and I don't understand

From my non-US perspective, this kind of views that China has somehow done something to disrupt world order look like obvious delusions, and I don't understand why they seem to be believed in America. Sure, China is authoritarian. But it has always been. And it has never promised otherwise. Maybe some naive neoliberals expected it to become democratic due to some magical thinking that trade brings democracy, but as far as I know this is just Western imagination at work, not anything that China ever vowed to do, so why is China acting coherently with its decades-long policy is suddenly seen in America as some sort of treason? And then, there is the military aspect... and sure, China is warlike, threatens Taiwan, etc., but is anyone going to seriously defend that the US is less warlike than China? Come on. The only real explanation seems to be that China has lately been successful in becoming more powerful (the goal of any country) and the US isn't taking that well at all, the rest looks like blatant propaganda.

prox 4y ago
I agree with some of your comments, but the problem we are facing is that without democracy, we don’t know what the people of China or say Russia (or take your pick) really want. The power is concentrated at the top of pyramid and so this immediately makes it a precarious situation where a few determine for the many. In the 00’s there were some hopes and signals and work done to see more democracy in those spheres, but it never materialized. So while you are right in the sense of China doing China things as it has, or Russia Russian things, the fact that one guy could wake up in a grumpy mood and start a war is what makes things a lot more fragile than they ought to be. Democracy is a bulwark against this type of fragile type of government.
ekianjo 4y ago
> but is anyone going to seriously defend that the US is less warlike than China? Come on. Nobody wants to live in a world where China defines the world order. They don't care about their own citizens and will care even less about the other countries they plan to control in one way or another. Also, the US is war-like but it's still a functioning democracy despite all its flaws and the power can change every x years. With China you end up with a dictator-for-life and good luck with that.
deleted 4y ago
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Georgelemental 4y ago
> Maybe some naive neoliberals expected it to become democratic due to some magical thinking that trade brings democracy The naïve neoliberals weren't fully wrong. When you trade with a foreign civilization, elements of their culture do tend to seep into yours. And American culture is particularly infectious. Where the calculus went wrong is that the CCP isn't dumb, they recognized the existential threat to their rule and countered it

prox 4y ago

I agree with some of your comments, but the problem we are facing is that without democracy, we don’t know what the people of China or say Russia (or take your pick) really want. The power is concentrated at the top of pyramid and so this immediately makes it a precarious situation where a few determine for the many. In the 00’s there were some hopes and signals and work done to see more democracy in those spheres, but it never materialized. So while you are right in the sense of China doing China things as it has, or Russia Russian things, the fact that one guy could wake up in a grumpy mood and start a war is what makes things a lot more fragile than they ought to be. Democracy is a bulwark against this type of fragile type of government.

ekianjo 4y ago

> but is anyone going to seriously defend that the US is less warlike than China? Come on. Nobody wants to live in a world where China defines the world order. They don't care about their own citizens and will care even less about the other countries they plan to control in one way or another. Also, the US is war-like but it's still a functioning democracy despite all its flaws and the power can change every x years. With China you end up with a dictator-for-life and good luck with that.

deleted 4y ago

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Georgelemental 4y ago

> Maybe some naive neoliberals expected it to become democratic due to some magical thinking that trade brings democracy The naïve neoliberals weren't fully wrong. When you trade with a foreign civilization, elements of their culture do tend to seep into yours. And American culture is particularly infectious. Where the calculus went wrong is that the CCP isn't dumb, they recognized the existential threat to their rule and countered it