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It's hard to believe globalization has a positive force on the world when China has become far more authoritarian in the last decade and has used its economic g

It's hard to believe globalization has a positive force on the world when China has become far more authoritarian in the last decade and has used its economic gains to loudly threaten its neighbors like Taiwan with annexation. I'm deeply pessimistic about any good that can come from continued trade with China and the west, as long as the communists wield power there.

sph 4y ago
> I'm deeply pessimistic about any good that can come from continued trade with China and the west, as long as the communists wield power there. As the author says, the good that comes from trading with ideologically different countries is a semblance of peace. It's a weak one, but becoming more self-reliant and less global removes the last reason superpowers have to keep diplomatic and peaceful channels open. I'd rather have US and China begrudgingly trading because they need each other than the opposite.
- TulliusCicero 4y ago
  Well, that was the idea with Russia too, and it backfired when Putin decided that the West would hesitate to cut off trade just because of invading Ukraine. The dependency works both ways.
  - oblio 4y ago
    True, but it's always about the amount of pain you can endure. The West in general can't endure much because it's no longer used to it, <<unless>>, and this is super important, that pain comes from a clear, mortal threat. In which case democracies are at least as resilient, probably more resilient than dictatorships because the decision making is spread around more and more individuals decide it's bad for them if the other side wins[1]. With Russia at least several countries (Eastern and Northern Europe) decided that Russia is a clear, mortal threat and they're lobbying the bigger and less decided actors (US, Western Europe) to hold the line. With China, in case of a conflict, alarm bells would go off around the world, much more than for Russia. The US population is quite apprehensive of the PRC regime, already. In Europe a similar thing is happening. I hope nothing happens, but I think people will be shocked how quickly the hostility ramps up if we get to it, even from people they wouldn't expect. [1] It's basically A) "someone tells you should be afraid of something" versus B) "I've figured out on my own I should be afraid of it". B) is a much stronger and more enduring learning process.
    - throw-ru-938 4y ago
      > The West in general can't endure much because it's no longer used to it, <<unless>>, and this is super important, that pain comes from a clear, mortal threat. In which case democracies are at least as resilient, probably more resilient than dictatorships because the decision making is spread around more Case in point: 2014 Ukraine vs 2022 Ukraine vs 2022 Russia. The volunteer movements in UA seem to be very strong and resilient, while the war effort in RU is so centralised it's almost a satire.
  - sph 4y ago
    Counter-argument: the rest of Europe, specifically the EU. We have been fighting our neighbours for hundreds of years, and after WW2 we decided to enter a huge trading agreement with each other, hoping that it would create lasting peace and prosperity.
frankreyes 4y ago
It's all a rhetoric propaganda whose audience is it's internal people, in order to keep power. China inports 80% of energy and 80% of its food chain, either finished food or fertilizer for domestic growth. Stopping globalization trade means famine in less than a year.
andrewstuart 4y ago
Yeah globalization is over. If you’re kind and try to make friends for a long time but you keep getting treated badly, you won’t continue being kind.

sph 4y ago

> I'm deeply pessimistic about any good that can come from continued trade with China and the west, as long as the communists wield power there. As the author says, the good that comes from trading with ideologically different countries is a semblance of peace. It's a weak one, but becoming more self-reliant and less global removes the last reason superpowers have to keep diplomatic and peaceful channels open. I'd rather have US and China begrudgingly trading because they need each other than the opposite.

TulliusCicero 4y ago
Well, that was the idea with Russia too, and it backfired when Putin decided that the West would hesitate to cut off trade just because of invading Ukraine. The dependency works both ways.
- oblio 4y ago
  True, but it's always about the amount of pain you can endure. The West in general can't endure much because it's no longer used to it, <<unless>>, and this is super important, that pain comes from a clear, mortal threat. In which case democracies are at least as resilient, probably more resilient than dictatorships because the decision making is spread around more and more individuals decide it's bad for them if the other side wins[1]. With Russia at least several countries (Eastern and Northern Europe) decided that Russia is a clear, mortal threat and they're lobbying the bigger and less decided actors (US, Western Europe) to hold the line. With China, in case of a conflict, alarm bells would go off around the world, much more than for Russia. The US population is quite apprehensive of the PRC regime, already. In Europe a similar thing is happening. I hope nothing happens, but I think people will be shocked how quickly the hostility ramps up if we get to it, even from people they wouldn't expect. [1] It's basically A) "someone tells you should be afraid of something" versus B) "I've figured out on my own I should be afraid of it". B) is a much stronger and more enduring learning process.
  - throw-ru-938 4y ago
    > The West in general can't endure much because it's no longer used to it, <<unless>>, and this is super important, that pain comes from a clear, mortal threat. In which case democracies are at least as resilient, probably more resilient than dictatorships because the decision making is spread around more Case in point: 2014 Ukraine vs 2022 Ukraine vs 2022 Russia. The volunteer movements in UA seem to be very strong and resilient, while the war effort in RU is so centralised it's almost a satire.
- sph 4y ago
  Counter-argument: the rest of Europe, specifically the EU. We have been fighting our neighbours for hundreds of years, and after WW2 we decided to enter a huge trading agreement with each other, hoping that it would create lasting peace and prosperity.

frankreyes 4y ago

It's all a rhetoric propaganda whose audience is it's internal people, in order to keep power. China inports 80% of energy and 80% of its food chain, either finished food or fertilizer for domestic growth. Stopping globalization trade means famine in less than a year.

andrewstuart 4y ago

Yeah globalization is over. If you’re kind and try to make friends for a long time but you keep getting treated badly, you won’t continue being kind.