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There are strings. You need to qualify for it. Which means it isn't a guaranteed income program. It is a normal needs-based welfare program. The entire concept

by nwah1 4y ago

There are strings. You need to qualify for it. Which means it isn't a guaranteed income program. It is a normal needs-based welfare program. The entire concept of a basic income guarantee, originally, was to remove the perverse incentives of needs-based programs, which can unintentionally trap people into dependency and poverty by punishing them for taking steps to improve their situation.

sjellen 4y ago
This, except.. its not unintentional.
- dsfyu404ed 4y ago
  Lyndon Johnson has a great quote about cornering voting blocks that way.
  - nwah1 4y ago
    Would be interested to hear it, if you can dig it up.
    - workingdog 4y ago
      https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/
      - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
        It’s provenance is at least as good as the equally inflammatory Nixon war on drugs quote everyone here assumes to be factual. https://intellectualtakeout.org/2016/10/did-lbj-say-ill-have-those-nggers-voting-democratic-for-200-years/ https://intellectualtakeout.org/2016/10/did-lbj-say-ill-have...
walterbell 4y ago
See the history of indentured labor.
k2enemy 4y ago
Nothing can actually be a guaranteed income program though, at least in the spirit that people talk about it. Someone eventually has to pay for it. Even if "everyone qualifies" and you give every person $xxx, some people will get their taxes raised by more than $xxx. Or if you tax entities other than individuals, eventually the taxes get passed on to individuals in the form of higher prices, lower wages, etc.
- kerpotgh 4y ago
  [dead]
- everfree 4y ago
  > Even if "everyone qualifies" and you give every person $xxx, some people will get their taxes raised by more than $xxx. I don't see how this would make it "not income". It's still income if you have a large tax bill. > at least in the spirit that people talk about it. In what spirit do people talk about it?
  - k2enemy 4y ago
    If UBI means that I get a check for $500 but at the same time my taxes go up by $500, I would have a hard time thinking that my income went up by $500. Think of a world with two people. One rich one poor. Both get checks for $500, but the rich persons taxes go up by $1000 to pay for the program. The net effect is different for the two people. Now in a more realistic setting with a range of incomes, the tax burden of UBI increases in a persons wealth. When you take the net of UBI income minus UBI taxes you get a progressive tax scheme. This means it is not a transfer in the way economists talk about transfers. You still have an effect where people get "punished" with higher taxes as their income goes up.
    - everfree 4y ago
      > If UBI means that I get a check for $500 but at the same time my taxes go up by $500, I would have a hard time thinking that my income went up by $500. If you get a check for $500 and your taxes go up by $500, that means your total compensation (all sources of taxable income including capital gains) is exactly at the national mean, which is to say that your income is way higher than the median income. As a mean income earner, you earn more than 80% of all Americans. Are you in the top 20% of income earners? If not, then you come out ahead. > Think of a world with two people. One rich one poor. Both get checks for $500, but the rich persons taxes go up by $1000 to pay for the program. The net effect is different for the two people. That is true and it is by design. That's the way functioning progressive tax systems have always worked. > You still have an effect where people get "punished" with higher taxes as their income goes up. Yes, that's the point of a progressive tax system.

by nwah1 4y ago

sjellen 4y ago

This, except.. its not unintentional.

dsfyu404ed 4y ago
Lyndon Johnson has a great quote about cornering voting blocks that way.
- nwah1 4y ago
  Would be interested to hear it, if you can dig it up.
  - workingdog 4y ago
    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/lbj-voting-democratic/
    - dsfyu404ed 4y ago
      It’s provenance is at least as good as the equally inflammatory Nixon war on drugs quote everyone here assumes to be factual. https://intellectualtakeout.org/2016/10/did-lbj-say-ill-have-those-nggers-voting-democratic-for-200-years/ https://intellectualtakeout.org/2016/10/did-lbj-say-ill-have...

walterbell 4y ago

See the history of indentured labor.

k2enemy 4y ago

Nothing can actually be a guaranteed income program though, at least in the spirit that people talk about it. Someone eventually has to pay for it. Even if "everyone qualifies" and you give every person $xxx, some people will get their taxes raised by more than $xxx. Or if you tax entities other than individuals, eventually the taxes get passed on to individuals in the form of higher prices, lower wages, etc.

kerpotgh 4y ago
[dead]
everfree 4y ago
> Even if "everyone qualifies" and you give every person $xxx, some people will get their taxes raised by more than $xxx. I don't see how this would make it "not income". It's still income if you have a large tax bill. > at least in the spirit that people talk about it. In what spirit do people talk about it?
- k2enemy 4y ago
  If UBI means that I get a check for $500 but at the same time my taxes go up by $500, I would have a hard time thinking that my income went up by $500. Think of a world with two people. One rich one poor. Both get checks for $500, but the rich persons taxes go up by $1000 to pay for the program. The net effect is different for the two people. Now in a more realistic setting with a range of incomes, the tax burden of UBI increases in a persons wealth. When you take the net of UBI income minus UBI taxes you get a progressive tax scheme. This means it is not a transfer in the way economists talk about transfers. You still have an effect where people get "punished" with higher taxes as their income goes up.
  - everfree 4y ago
    > If UBI means that I get a check for $500 but at the same time my taxes go up by $500, I would have a hard time thinking that my income went up by $500. If you get a check for $500 and your taxes go up by $500, that means your total compensation (all sources of taxable income including capital gains) is exactly at the national mean, which is to say that your income is way higher than the median income. As a mean income earner, you earn more than 80% of all Americans. Are you in the top 20% of income earners? If not, then you come out ahead. > Think of a world with two people. One rich one poor. Both get checks for $500, but the rich persons taxes go up by $1000 to pay for the program. The net effect is different for the two people. That is true and it is by design. That's the way functioning progressive tax systems have always worked. > You still have an effect where people get "punished" with higher taxes as their income goes up. Yes, that's the point of a progressive tax system.