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A bit of an aside but it’s so strange to me seeing ‘trades’ referred to as a lowly thing. Here in Australia, tradies are admired, often earn really good money

A bit of an aside but it’s so strange to me seeing ‘trades’ referred to as a lowly thing. Here in Australia, tradies are admired, often earn really good money and get a lot of good attention. They can work hard and put in the hours to get ahead whereas us IT guys on salary have a much more ‘fixed’ earning potential.

steve_adams_86 4y ago
I have no aversion to trades and actually worked in joinery for many years before I began programming professionally. I don’t mean to look down on it at all. I actually find it absurd that I earn as much as I do compared to say, a red seal carpenter here in Canada where their breadth of skill and knowledge means more and accomplishes more than my own skill set in very tangible and crucial ways. If I could support my family as well in trades I might have considered staying — I loved working the giant industrial CNC machine and began to love learning to set it up and create CAD drawings for it. I probably would have enjoyed a career headed in that direction, but I could have ended up earning around 1/3 of what I do now… At best.
- Fr0styMatt88 4y ago
  Oh just to clarify - I didn’t think you were looking down on the trades at all, it’s the sentiment expressed by the school guidance counsellor that I found strange. I’ve heard it is a very culturally-dependent thing, to be fair. Your comment reminded me of going with my dad to a place that had a huge laser-cutting machine when I was young. They were awesome!
  - steve_adams_86 4y ago
    I totally agree, the sentiment is strange. I've noticed that it seems to be shifting; when I was a teen there was an obsession with becoming a knowledge worker of some sort and getting an education. That fever appears to be subsiding now, and I hope that's reflected in how rewarding and sustainable trades careers can be in the near future here. In my city it would be quite difficult a the moment to get by in most trades without dual incomes, and you'd need to live away from any central schools. Buying a home is nearly impossible without a 150k+ CAD income, and the trades will rarely get you half way there without significant experience. Something that blew my mind recently is that I left joinery with a job earning about 65k CAD per year (around 2008). I recently met a guy getting his red seal and he earns about 62k CAD. He hopes to hit 80k within a few years of getting his seal by making lateral moves and bargaining better, but isn't certain it's even possible. This is insane to me. Not only has the value of his work decreased, but even with better credentials than I had he's earning less. This is the completely wrong direction for things to go! I was also shocked to find that he spends about 36% of his pre-tax income on rent, and when I was earning 65k I was spending about 8% of my pre-tax income on rent. I lived an hour away and shared rent with a room mate in a small house, whereas he lives alone in a small apartment in our expensive city. But wow. What a striking difference; it almost seems impossible to get ahead despite that he's educated, competent, and working hard at improving himself. I feel like that needs to change or we won't see kids move into the trades and, you know, hold up our society here! Also I totally agree about giant laser cutters. I can't get enough of CNC machines of all sorts. I really, really want to build one some day.
antod 4y ago
Admittedly the "on salary" is the key here. Trade wage slaves don't earn a huge amount - it's the ones that act more like a freelancer or their own contracting company that can do. A bit like when that IT guy moves into doing consulting contracts.
astrange 4y ago
That's specific to Australia. In the US "trades" can be very well paying if you're self-employed, but it's low class and hard to get into, something that'd have to run into your family. And we actually pay tech workers well.

steve_adams_86 4y ago

I have no aversion to trades and actually worked in joinery for many years before I began programming professionally. I don’t mean to look down on it at all. I actually find it absurd that I earn as much as I do compared to say, a red seal carpenter here in Canada where their breadth of skill and knowledge means more and accomplishes more than my own skill set in very tangible and crucial ways. If I could support my family as well in trades I might have considered staying — I loved working the giant industrial CNC machine and began to love learning to set it up and create CAD drawings for it. I probably would have enjoyed a career headed in that direction, but I could have ended up earning around 1/3 of what I do now… At best.

Fr0styMatt88 4y ago
Oh just to clarify - I didn’t think you were looking down on the trades at all, it’s the sentiment expressed by the school guidance counsellor that I found strange. I’ve heard it is a very culturally-dependent thing, to be fair. Your comment reminded me of going with my dad to a place that had a huge laser-cutting machine when I was young. They were awesome!
- steve_adams_86 4y ago
  I totally agree, the sentiment is strange. I've noticed that it seems to be shifting; when I was a teen there was an obsession with becoming a knowledge worker of some sort and getting an education. That fever appears to be subsiding now, and I hope that's reflected in how rewarding and sustainable trades careers can be in the near future here. In my city it would be quite difficult a the moment to get by in most trades without dual incomes, and you'd need to live away from any central schools. Buying a home is nearly impossible without a 150k+ CAD income, and the trades will rarely get you half way there without significant experience. Something that blew my mind recently is that I left joinery with a job earning about 65k CAD per year (around 2008). I recently met a guy getting his red seal and he earns about 62k CAD. He hopes to hit 80k within a few years of getting his seal by making lateral moves and bargaining better, but isn't certain it's even possible. This is insane to me. Not only has the value of his work decreased, but even with better credentials than I had he's earning less. This is the completely wrong direction for things to go! I was also shocked to find that he spends about 36% of his pre-tax income on rent, and when I was earning 65k I was spending about 8% of my pre-tax income on rent. I lived an hour away and shared rent with a room mate in a small house, whereas he lives alone in a small apartment in our expensive city. But wow. What a striking difference; it almost seems impossible to get ahead despite that he's educated, competent, and working hard at improving himself. I feel like that needs to change or we won't see kids move into the trades and, you know, hold up our society here! Also I totally agree about giant laser cutters. I can't get enough of CNC machines of all sorts. I really, really want to build one some day.

antod 4y ago

Admittedly the "on salary" is the key here. Trade wage slaves don't earn a huge amount - it's the ones that act more like a freelancer or their own contracting company that can do. A bit like when that IT guy moves into doing consulting contracts.

astrange 4y ago

That's specific to Australia. In the US "trades" can be very well paying if you're self-employed, but it's low class and hard to get into, something that'd have to run into your family. And we actually pay tech workers well.