4 ms·

I think we're supposed to stop looking to Cosby for moral advice? Anyway, complicating an already contentious issue (parent stipulates that he is "angry") with

I think we're supposed to stop looking to Cosby for moral advice? Anyway, complicating an already contentious issue (parent stipulates that he is "angry") with one's own idiosyncratic take on "race in America" seems bad for reasoned discussion.

EGreg 4y ago
Who do you look to for moral advice? What is wrong with Deloris Tucker and Steven A Smith? And anyway, one does not need to be a paragon of virtue in every fact of their life to denounce current trends. Many people who were very loud turned out to do shady things in the background. Are we supposed to look to BLM leaders for advice, for example? NAACP has a far longer track record and their leaders seem to have acted with more integrity over the decades: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-lives-matter-activists-accuse-executive-stealing-10-million-dono-rcna46481 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-lives-matter-activ...
- jessaustin 4y ago
  Normally I wouldn't respond in a thread I had already declared OT, but you've asked a fairly direct question. Smith is a windbag who riles up viewers about controversial trivia. He is less obnoxious than most such, since his topics typically relate to sports rather than politics, but nothing he has said outside the realm of sports (and fairly little he has said within it) would indicate a habit of deep thought. Tucker passed away 17 years ago, and in the preceding decade seems primarily to have been a one-note instrument. Cosby's infamy perhaps doesn't disqualify him as a source of advice, but it makes one wonder. What common thread weaves through these three seemingly different exemplars you've chosen? I prefer to think in terms of ethics rather than morality, and in terms of timeless values rather than current events. I struggle with this, but I feel I have benefited from the works of Walter Kaufmann, Kierkegaard, and other existentialist and existentialist-adjacent thinkers. If you seek moral advice and can't find it in your bible or at church, perhaps you might appreciate e.g. Jason Whitlock? I do, but in a different way than most of his other fans, I suspect.
  - EGreg 4y ago
    I suppose the common thread is that they are all outspoken Black people, from different walks of life, who have all recognized that corrosive influences are coming from certain capitalist entertainment industries and contributing to cultural/moral degradation as a negative externality made in the name of profit. Cosby spent YEARS playing "America's dad" for the Black family, as did James Avery, Reginald VelJohnson and others. They provided a wholesome role model to look up to, of a married family man, who provides for his kids and teaches them manners and morals, as opposed to "role models" poppin bottles and bangin models that the rap industry provides. Misogynistic lyrics, racial slurs, materialistic lifestyles, sometimes even glorifying violence. What good does it do? If outsiders can't criticize it because it is "authentic Black expression", then it falls to Black voices to do so. And they do, increasingly. To try to combat moral / cultural degradation and restore family values takes both economic and cultural reform. This used to be the subject of Black sit coms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5D2RvIQwQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5D2RvIQwQE And even CNN anchor Don Lemon used to OPENLY say stuff like this: https://www.cnn.com/videos/bestoftv/2013/07/27/nr-lemon-no-talking-points.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/bestoftv/2013/07/27/nr-lemon-no-t... So Steven A Smith said the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb4pEN3s7B8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb4pEN3s7B8 Deloris Tucker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr6gb1w72xA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr6gb1w72xA I mean, I think you're tilting at windmills here when you're going after everyone's moral character who has said similar things. I could give you a lot more examples, but they haven't and don't make a dent in the capitalist machine. It has adapted. The reason it's on topic is because it's just a special case of what that machine sells to everyone regardless of consequences. Instagram and TikTok "influencers" have contributed massively to anxiety and depression of teenage girls, but also promote dressing and acting in ways their parents and grandparents never could. Miley Cyrus was the "voice of a generation", a "good girl" promoted by "wholesome" Disney, then she had a coming-out with the record industry, where her biggest new talent was sticking her tongue out while naked and gripping a chain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My2FRPA3Gf8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My2FRPA3Gf8 Sex sells and nudity grabs headlines on billboards: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2157969/Rihanna-nude-billboard-centre-attention-New-Yorks-Times-Square.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2157969/Rihann... It tells women to "lean in" and work 10 hours a day instead of telling both men and women to "lean out" and spend time with their family. Sometimes it even becomes a parody of itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8 Again, there doesn't need to be a conspiracy behind it (as Kanye believes) it's just what the market (and "the algorithm") selects for. Look at your news, it's all become click-bait that makes ADULTS (whose brains are fully developed) into frothing-at-the-mouth rabid haters of the left, or the right, or whoever. It also radicalizes citizens into supporting destructive wars. Look at your social media. It has made you distracted at dinner, addicted like a pavlov's dog to notifications, using your phone 10 hours a day of screen time. If it can do that to adults, imagine what it can do to kids. This society overall tries to medicate people and put bandaids on real problems, like when both parents work 10 hour days, stick their kids in public schools and their parents into nursing homes, and everyone is medicated because everyone is depressed or not served well by the system.
- astrange 4y ago
  I think "not a paragon of virtue in every fact of their life" is a very strange way to describe a multiple convicted rapist!
  - EGreg 4y ago
    I am more interested in widespread problems in society than one specific person. But having said that, regarding Cosby raping women, I can only go by what I read about the Cosby allegations and lawsuits on Wikipedia. There is a lot said on both sides (eg several women sued Cosby for calling them liars in 2014). It seems the biggest actual clear admission of sexual assault was from a leaked deposition where he described how he would give Quaaludes in the 60s and 70s to women he met in clubs and subsequently slept with. I looked up the drug on Wikipedia: Methaqualone became increasingly popular as a recreational drug and club drug in the late 1960s and 1970s, known variously as "ludes" or "disco biscuits"[citation needed] due to its widespread use during the popularity of disco in the 1970s, or "sopers" (also "soaps") in the United States and Canada, and "mandrakes" and "mandies" in the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand. The substance was sold both as a free base and as a salt (hydrochloride). This use means the drug is controlled in most countries, and is so under Schedule II of the United Nations Convention on Psychotropic Substances. So if this drug was “in widespread recreational use” in that period, I would imagine this was a widespread systemic problem, and not just limited to Cosby. So once again, we as a society are distracted and made to think one specific guy is the problem, where actually the entire liberal society got permeated with this kind of stuff, fueled by the exact sort of profit seeking industry I am talking about: drug sales, in this case, rather than rap songs. I am not saying for the government to get involved and carry on a violent and useless drug war on the supply. I am talking about demand-side education like the “just say no to Drugs” by Nancy Reagan, but more importantly — individual attention and relationships with kids, teenagers and young adults, by their parents, teachers, coaches, clergy, whoever. Don’t let the kids slip through the cracks and become loners / outcasts. That is how they turn to these drugs and then this gets cynically exported by CAPITALIST MEDIA to all the others. I am not being hyperbolic, look: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/ Even today, how many times do we investigate allegations of rape on campus, and enact yes means yes and affirmative opt in policies, while doing precious little about the upstream culture of ALCOHOL FUELED PARTIES on campus? These teenagers are below legal drinking age — but besides that, the very idea that college is like an expensive year cruise for partying and experimentation, and coming of age, is behind many of the activities. The “girls gone wild” and “spring break” videos exploit this at the extremes, but we KNOW about the parties even today, yet we focus downstream only, and catch isolated cases. Hookup culture and casual dating has replaced “going steady”, engagement and marriage. Out of wedlock births have skyrocketed. Divorce rates and opiates and antidepressants have skyrocketed. You can listen to any person, doesn’t have to be Cosby. But what Cosby has admitted to was widespread in society (drug use, alcohol etc) so shouldn’t we as a society look at the widespread problem, instead of patting ourselves on the back that we removed “all the rapists” from the pool? It is like the gun debate … there are lots of guns in the country, most of the time the people shot and the people doing the shooting are drunk, but we as a society are hung up on individual cases after the fact or “a good guy with a gun an stop a bad guy with a gun”. We don’t connect the dots. The NHS was ordered to STOP doing research into guns and alcohol as an epidemiological or health issue.

EGreg 4y ago

Who do you look to for moral advice? What is wrong with Deloris Tucker and Steven A Smith? And anyway, one does not need to be a paragon of virtue in every fact of their life to denounce current trends. Many people who were very loud turned out to do shady things in the background. Are we supposed to look to BLM leaders for advice, for example? NAACP has a far longer track record and their leaders seem to have acted with more integrity over the decades: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-lives-matter-activists-accuse-executive-stealing-10-million-dono-rcna46481 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/black-lives-matter-activ...

jessaustin 4y ago
Normally I wouldn't respond in a thread I had already declared OT, but you've asked a fairly direct question. Smith is a windbag who riles up viewers about controversial trivia. He is less obnoxious than most such, since his topics typically relate to sports rather than politics, but nothing he has said outside the realm of sports (and fairly little he has said within it) would indicate a habit of deep thought. Tucker passed away 17 years ago, and in the preceding decade seems primarily to have been a one-note instrument. Cosby's infamy perhaps doesn't disqualify him as a source of advice, but it makes one wonder. What common thread weaves through these three seemingly different exemplars you've chosen? I prefer to think in terms of ethics rather than morality, and in terms of timeless values rather than current events. I struggle with this, but I feel I have benefited from the works of Walter Kaufmann, Kierkegaard, and other existentialist and existentialist-adjacent thinkers. If you seek moral advice and can't find it in your bible or at church, perhaps you might appreciate e.g. Jason Whitlock? I do, but in a different way than most of his other fans, I suspect.
- EGreg 4y ago
  I suppose the common thread is that they are all outspoken Black people, from different walks of life, who have all recognized that corrosive influences are coming from certain capitalist entertainment industries and contributing to cultural/moral degradation as a negative externality made in the name of profit. Cosby spent YEARS playing "America's dad" for the Black family, as did James Avery, Reginald VelJohnson and others. They provided a wholesome role model to look up to, of a married family man, who provides for his kids and teaches them manners and morals, as opposed to "role models" poppin bottles and bangin models that the rap industry provides. Misogynistic lyrics, racial slurs, materialistic lifestyles, sometimes even glorifying violence. What good does it do? If outsiders can't criticize it because it is "authentic Black expression", then it falls to Black voices to do so. And they do, increasingly. To try to combat moral / cultural degradation and restore family values takes both economic and cultural reform. This used to be the subject of Black sit coms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5D2RvIQwQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5D2RvIQwQE And even CNN anchor Don Lemon used to OPENLY say stuff like this: https://www.cnn.com/videos/bestoftv/2013/07/27/nr-lemon-no-talking-points.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/bestoftv/2013/07/27/nr-lemon-no-t... So Steven A Smith said the same: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb4pEN3s7B8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pb4pEN3s7B8 Deloris Tucker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr6gb1w72xA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pr6gb1w72xA I mean, I think you're tilting at windmills here when you're going after everyone's moral character who has said similar things. I could give you a lot more examples, but they haven't and don't make a dent in the capitalist machine. It has adapted. The reason it's on topic is because it's just a special case of what that machine sells to everyone regardless of consequences. Instagram and TikTok "influencers" have contributed massively to anxiety and depression of teenage girls, but also promote dressing and acting in ways their parents and grandparents never could. Miley Cyrus was the "voice of a generation", a "good girl" promoted by "wholesome" Disney, then she had a coming-out with the record industry, where her biggest new talent was sticking her tongue out while naked and gripping a chain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My2FRPA3Gf8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My2FRPA3Gf8 Sex sells and nudity grabs headlines on billboards: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2157969/Rihanna-nude-billboard-centre-attention-New-Yorks-Times-Square.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2157969/Rihann... It tells women to "lean in" and work 10 hours a day instead of telling both men and women to "lean out" and spend time with their family. Sometimes it even becomes a parody of itself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNzXze5Yza8 Again, there doesn't need to be a conspiracy behind it (as Kanye believes) it's just what the market (and "the algorithm") selects for. Look at your news, it's all become click-bait that makes ADULTS (whose brains are fully developed) into frothing-at-the-mouth rabid haters of the left, or the right, or whoever. It also radicalizes citizens into supporting destructive wars. Look at your social media. It has made you distracted at dinner, addicted like a pavlov's dog to notifications, using your phone 10 hours a day of screen time. If it can do that to adults, imagine what it can do to kids. This society overall tries to medicate people and put bandaids on real problems, like when both parents work 10 hour days, stick their kids in public schools and their parents into nursing homes, and everyone is medicated because everyone is depressed or not served well by the system.
astrange 4y ago
I think "not a paragon of virtue in every fact of their life" is a very strange way to describe a multiple convicted rapist!
- EGreg 4y ago
  I am more interested in widespread problems in society than one specific person. But having said that, regarding Cosby raping women, I can only go by what I read about the Cosby allegations and lawsuits on Wikipedia. There is a lot said on both sides (eg several women sued Cosby for calling them liars in 2014). It seems the biggest actual clear admission of sexual assault was from a leaked deposition where he described how he would give Quaaludes in the 60s and 70s to women he met in clubs and subsequently slept with. I looked up the drug on Wikipedia: Methaqualone became increasingly popular as a recreational drug and club drug in the late 1960s and 1970s, known variously as "ludes" or "disco biscuits"[citation needed] due to its widespread use during the popularity of disco in the 1970s, or "sopers" (also "soaps") in the United States and Canada, and "mandrakes" and "mandies" in the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand. The substance was sold both as a free base and as a salt (hydrochloride). This use means the drug is controlled in most countries, and is so under Schedule II of the United Nations Convention on Psychotropic Substances. So if this drug was “in widespread recreational use” in that period, I would imagine this was a widespread systemic problem, and not just limited to Cosby. So once again, we as a society are distracted and made to think one specific guy is the problem, where actually the entire liberal society got permeated with this kind of stuff, fueled by the exact sort of profit seeking industry I am talking about: drug sales, in this case, rather than rap songs. I am not saying for the government to get involved and carry on a violent and useless drug war on the supply. I am talking about demand-side education like the “just say no to Drugs” by Nancy Reagan, but more importantly — individual attention and relationships with kids, teenagers and young adults, by their parents, teachers, coaches, clergy, whoever. Don’t let the kids slip through the cracks and become loners / outcasts. That is how they turn to these drugs and then this gets cynically exported by CAPITALIST MEDIA to all the others. I am not being hyperbolic, look: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/ https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/ Even today, how many times do we investigate allegations of rape on campus, and enact yes means yes and affirmative opt in policies, while doing precious little about the upstream culture of ALCOHOL FUELED PARTIES on campus? These teenagers are below legal drinking age — but besides that, the very idea that college is like an expensive year cruise for partying and experimentation, and coming of age, is behind many of the activities. The “girls gone wild” and “spring break” videos exploit this at the extremes, but we KNOW about the parties even today, yet we focus downstream only, and catch isolated cases. Hookup culture and casual dating has replaced “going steady”, engagement and marriage. Out of wedlock births have skyrocketed. Divorce rates and opiates and antidepressants have skyrocketed. You can listen to any person, doesn’t have to be Cosby. But what Cosby has admitted to was widespread in society (drug use, alcohol etc) so shouldn’t we as a society look at the widespread problem, instead of patting ourselves on the back that we removed “all the rapists” from the pool? It is like the gun debate … there are lots of guns in the country, most of the time the people shot and the people doing the shooting are drunk, but we as a society are hung up on individual cases after the fact or “a good guy with a gun an stop a bad guy with a gun”. We don’t connect the dots. The NHS was ordered to STOP doing research into guns and alcohol as an epidemiological or health issue.