7 ms·

Absolutely, I'm in the same boat. The reason it's so upsetting is precisely for the reasons you state. I (perhaps foolishly?) believe that America has the oppo

by bitops 15y ago

Absolutely, I'm in the same boat. The reason it's so upsetting is precisely for the reasons you state. I (perhaps foolishly?) believe that America has the opportunity to be a role model for the rest of the world in terms of how a society can work. America has its problems. I will be the first to agree with that. But for all its problems, America has a lot going for it. It's a relatively free society, there is social mobility (more for some than others, it's true) and it's a nice place to live, even just in terms of its geography. (I live in California and so that of course will make me biased). Consider - America is a country that, despite all its problems, people risk their lives to get into. There's a simple reason why America continues to attract illegal immigrants - it's better than wherever they came from. So much so that they'll pay sleazy people to transport them across borders under the cover of night. It sounds dramatic, but that's because it is! So - America is great and I'd personally like it to stay that way. That's why it's the responsibility of the people living in America to keep their backyard clean and their politicians in line.

mayanksinghal 15y ago
> "attract illegal immigrants - it's better than wherever they came from" I am not a US citizen, all I know about US is from TV, Movies and the web. But this is not a proof that US is a great place to live in. It just means that the neighbouring countries have far worse living conditions. I harder test would be if the more fortunate, richer class of people who are already comfortable with their living standards in their respective countries, choose to move to US because they cannot add to their level of satisfaction otherwise.
- bitops 15y ago
  I am not a US citizen either though I live here. (I'm a permanent resident, intent on becoming a citizen, as I like this country a great deal). > this is not a proof that US is a great place to live in. It just means that the neighbouring countries have far worse living conditions. In my book, that means the US is better than those places. True, it doesn't make it great. But there are many other places in the world with good living standards and yet the US is where people try to come. > I harder test would be if the more fortunate, richer class of people who are already comfortable with their living standards in their respective countries, choose to move to US because they cannot add to their level of satisfaction otherwise. This is actually my own case. My parents left a very comfortable life in Western Europe to go to the US and try and make things better. My stepdad was doing a startup back in the late 90's and it was much easier to get funding here. Americans are risk takers, which is why so much innovation comes out of this country. There's a reason why the Apples, Googles, and Intels of the world are located in the US, and it's much more than economic.
  - danssig 15y ago
    >and yet the US is where people try to come. You don't see the people flooding into France? Italy? Switzerland? Germany? The UK? The US is good at one thing though: advertising.
  - krzyk 15y ago
    There is a reason that most of emplyees of Apples, Googles and Intels of the world are located outside of US :)
    - bitops 15y ago
      > There is a reason that most of emplyees of Apples, Googles and Intels of the world are located outside of US :) Yes, the labor is absolutely cheaper. But US labor has never been cheap. It's a common illusion that politicians have gotten very good at selling. Even in early times (100-200 yrs ago), US labor was not inexpensive. My point was more that all those companies were founded in the US.
  - mayanksinghal 15y ago
    I definitely agree. I would rather go to US than Europe and this is not because the former has better living conditions but because there are better opportunities to learn and for a CS student like me, Silicon valley is the Mecca. But the point I am making is that illegal immigration, the example you had given, is not a measure of how good the country is with respect to the rest of the world. It only measures how good the country is (and how porous the borders are) with respect to its neighbours. Legal immigration on the other hand is a much better measure, and US has tons of it. [Edit - typos]
    - dedward 15y ago
      slightlymobvious, but the us only has two neighbours, canada d mexico. canada is no more a source of illegal immigration to the us than the us is to canada (it happens in both directions, nobody cares.) which leaves mexico. osmsure, people sneak in because life for them is better as an illegal in the hus than legal in their own country. this happens all over the world, not just to the us. further, just because a country is better than many (it is) is no reason for complacency..... if things are going so great, why not khelp out your suffering neighbours more? and if they arent going so great, how can one say its the best place on earth?
- hessenwolf 15y ago
  They even speak English there - it would be so much easier to move to the US!!! Except, ten days holidays; no employee protection; no medical care; no social welfare; insane politics and warmongering; property taxes that screw your retirement; high crime rate... Yet, we still love you guys (except for Adam Sandler), and wish you would just moderate a little on the politics: things are grey, not black and white ;).
danssig 15y ago
Ugh, typical example of the attitude many of us find so annoying. America has the same things going for it any first world country does. People risk their lives to get into lots of first world countries as well. Living in the first world is great, we hope you can stay in the club. - An American expat who's most likely never coming back.
- jmduke 15y ago
  In terms of cultural cache alone, America is leaps and bounds beyond most other third world countries. This isn't from luck; America's brilliance has always been in its sociogeographic diversity.
  - EvilLook 15y ago
    The United States of America hasn't existed long enough to develop its own high culture.
  - frobozz 15y ago
    USA is, by the very definition of the term, not a third world country.
    - jmduke 15y ago
      I meant to type first world country (pitfalls of posting at six in the morning.)
      - danssig 15y ago
        Ack, I assumed that was the joke and gave you an upvote. :(
    - Vivtek 15y ago
      You obviously haven't been to rural Indiana.
- bitops 15y ago
  > - An American expat who's most likely never coming back. If you see my others comments in this thread, I'm a Danish expat who's never going back. Perhaps it's the idealism of the immigrant that makes me feel the way I do.
cfm_80919 15y ago
> I (perhaps foolishly?) believe that America has the opportunity to be a role model for the rest of the world in terms of how a society can work. Yes, you believe foolishly. See below for why. > But for all its problems, America has a lot going for it. It's a relatively free society, there is social mobility (more for some than others, it's true) and it's a nice place to live, even just in terms of its geography. (I live in California and so that of course will make me biased). Consider - America is a country that, despite all its problems, people risk their lives to get into. There's a simple reason why America continues to attract illegal immigrants - it's better than wherever they came from. Background: I am an United States citizen now working in northern Europe. To quote a TED Talk, "If you want the American Dream, move to Denmark." The United States is not a free society. Is it more free than China? Yes. Is it more free than the majority of the OCED? No. They have gotten very good at selling the "American Dream", that is the sole reason people still risk their lives to get into it. The dream cracked for me when I realised that despite 10 years of programming experience, I could not get a job in the U.S.; whereas, one month after searching for work in Europe and I had a job offer. "Well, why didn't you start your own business in the U.S.?" My answer is simple: I am sick of living "at the pleasure of the king". To live in the U.S. is to be constantly unsure of where you stand with respect to the law. This applies doubly so if you start a business. This problem with the law results from two positions: 1. Ignorance of the law is not a defence. 2. Interpretation of the law can change. This brings up some major problems. Principally, how can I know the law if the interpretation (and thus the application) of the law is not constant? Add in low levels of corruption (on average, the bad ones are really bad) and different application of the law as a function of a person's class and you might begin to understand why I want no part of living at the pleasure of the king.
- adestefan 15y ago
  I'm not sure how you can feel like any place that is ruled by laws does not fall under your two positions.
- ensignavenger 15y ago
  What your argument fails to do is demonstrate how Denmark is any different. Please do.

by bitops 15y ago

mayanksinghal 15y ago

> "attract illegal immigrants - it's better than wherever they came from" I am not a US citizen, all I know about US is from TV, Movies and the web. But this is not a proof that US is a great place to live in. It just means that the neighbouring countries have far worse living conditions. I harder test would be if the more fortunate, richer class of people who are already comfortable with their living standards in their respective countries, choose to move to US because they cannot add to their level of satisfaction otherwise.

bitops 15y ago
I am not a US citizen either though I live here. (I'm a permanent resident, intent on becoming a citizen, as I like this country a great deal). > this is not a proof that US is a great place to live in. It just means that the neighbouring countries have far worse living conditions. In my book, that means the US is better than those places. True, it doesn't make it great. But there are many other places in the world with good living standards and yet the US is where people try to come. > I harder test would be if the more fortunate, richer class of people who are already comfortable with their living standards in their respective countries, choose to move to US because they cannot add to their level of satisfaction otherwise. This is actually my own case. My parents left a very comfortable life in Western Europe to go to the US and try and make things better. My stepdad was doing a startup back in the late 90's and it was much easier to get funding here. Americans are risk takers, which is why so much innovation comes out of this country. There's a reason why the Apples, Googles, and Intels of the world are located in the US, and it's much more than economic.
- danssig 15y ago
  >and yet the US is where people try to come. You don't see the people flooding into France? Italy? Switzerland? Germany? The UK? The US is good at one thing though: advertising.
- krzyk 15y ago
  There is a reason that most of emplyees of Apples, Googles and Intels of the world are located outside of US :)
  - bitops 15y ago
    > There is a reason that most of emplyees of Apples, Googles and Intels of the world are located outside of US :) Yes, the labor is absolutely cheaper. But US labor has never been cheap. It's a common illusion that politicians have gotten very good at selling. Even in early times (100-200 yrs ago), US labor was not inexpensive. My point was more that all those companies were founded in the US.
- mayanksinghal 15y ago
  I definitely agree. I would rather go to US than Europe and this is not because the former has better living conditions but because there are better opportunities to learn and for a CS student like me, Silicon valley is the Mecca. But the point I am making is that illegal immigration, the example you had given, is not a measure of how good the country is with respect to the rest of the world. It only measures how good the country is (and how porous the borders are) with respect to its neighbours. Legal immigration on the other hand is a much better measure, and US has tons of it. [Edit - typos]
  - dedward 15y ago
    slightlymobvious, but the us only has two neighbours, canada d mexico. canada is no more a source of illegal immigration to the us than the us is to canada (it happens in both directions, nobody cares.) which leaves mexico. osmsure, people sneak in because life for them is better as an illegal in the hus than legal in their own country. this happens all over the world, not just to the us. further, just because a country is better than many (it is) is no reason for complacency..... if things are going so great, why not khelp out your suffering neighbours more? and if they arent going so great, how can one say its the best place on earth?
hessenwolf 15y ago
They even speak English there - it would be so much easier to move to the US!!! Except, ten days holidays; no employee protection; no medical care; no social welfare; insane politics and warmongering; property taxes that screw your retirement; high crime rate... Yet, we still love you guys (except for Adam Sandler), and wish you would just moderate a little on the politics: things are grey, not black and white ;).

danssig 15y ago

Ugh, typical example of the attitude many of us find so annoying. America has the same things going for it any first world country does. People risk their lives to get into lots of first world countries as well. Living in the first world is great, we hope you can stay in the club. - An American expat who's most likely never coming back.

jmduke 15y ago
In terms of cultural cache alone, America is leaps and bounds beyond most other third world countries. This isn't from luck; America's brilliance has always been in its sociogeographic diversity.
- EvilLook 15y ago
  The United States of America hasn't existed long enough to develop its own high culture.
- frobozz 15y ago
  USA is, by the very definition of the term, not a third world country.
  - jmduke 15y ago
    I meant to type first world country (pitfalls of posting at six in the morning.)
    - danssig 15y ago
      Ack, I assumed that was the joke and gave you an upvote. :(
  - Vivtek 15y ago
    You obviously haven't been to rural Indiana.
bitops 15y ago
> - An American expat who's most likely never coming back. If you see my others comments in this thread, I'm a Danish expat who's never going back. Perhaps it's the idealism of the immigrant that makes me feel the way I do.

cfm_80919 15y ago

> I (perhaps foolishly?) believe that America has the opportunity to be a role model for the rest of the world in terms of how a society can work. Yes, you believe foolishly. See below for why. > But for all its problems, America has a lot going for it. It's a relatively free society, there is social mobility (more for some than others, it's true) and it's a nice place to live, even just in terms of its geography. (I live in California and so that of course will make me biased). Consider - America is a country that, despite all its problems, people risk their lives to get into. There's a simple reason why America continues to attract illegal immigrants - it's better than wherever they came from. Background: I am an United States citizen now working in northern Europe. To quote a TED Talk, "If you want the American Dream, move to Denmark." The United States is not a free society. Is it more free than China? Yes. Is it more free than the majority of the OCED? No. They have gotten very good at selling the "American Dream", that is the sole reason people still risk their lives to get into it. The dream cracked for me when I realised that despite 10 years of programming experience, I could not get a job in the U.S.; whereas, one month after searching for work in Europe and I had a job offer. "Well, why didn't you start your own business in the U.S.?" My answer is simple: I am sick of living "at the pleasure of the king". To live in the U.S. is to be constantly unsure of where you stand with respect to the law. This applies doubly so if you start a business. This problem with the law results from two positions: 1. Ignorance of the law is not a defence. 2. Interpretation of the law can change. This brings up some major problems. Principally, how can I know the law if the interpretation (and thus the application) of the law is not constant? Add in low levels of corruption (on average, the bad ones are really bad) and different application of the law as a function of a person's class and you might begin to understand why I want no part of living at the pleasure of the king.

adestefan 15y ago
I'm not sure how you can feel like any place that is ruled by laws does not fall under your two positions.
ensignavenger 15y ago
What your argument fails to do is demonstrate how Denmark is any different. Please do.