4 ms·

The world has moved beyond where just text is sufficient, IRC as a protocol is no longer relevant, sad but true. And I say that as a regular on multiple IRC ne

The world has moved beyond where just text is sufficient, IRC as a protocol is no longer relevant, sad but true. And I say that as a regular on multiple IRC networks, some through Matrix bridge.

LinuxBender 4y ago
For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server. [1] - https://github.com/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge [2] - https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/ [3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ [4] - https://convos.chat/ https://convos.chat/ [5] - https://www.mumble.info/ https://www.mumble.info/ [6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration
- neoromantique 4y ago
  Thank you for the links, I prefer to use Matrix(Element on mobile and gomuks in cli on workstations), I also use weechat for certain networks that don't allow bridging with matrix, I also bridge slack into same weechat. But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now, no matter how many shiny web interfaces we put on top of it, so embracing the actually open platform that has a chance of gaining any traction is a no-brainer.
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now Agreed. I still use it when I need a quick way to chat. That and Devzat SSH chat. I can fire up NGIrcd in about 3 minutes and most of that time is dealing with LetsEncrypt. UnrealIRCD is my preferred IRCD but the configuration is more involved so I don't bother since most people moved to Discord. Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately?
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      >Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately? Sorry, I don't know if I'm being honest :) The one I run is used by just few people. Matrix isn't so "internal community" focused like Mastodon in its federation.
- lmm 4y ago
  > For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. At that point you've just reimplemented a less-standard version of matrix with extra steps though. Your protocol has become heavyweight and non-standard (you could argue it degrades gracefully to IRC, but in practice using your enhanced server from an unenhanced client will always be painful), you're holding state on the server in the same way you were worried about (and without the mitigation of E2EE)...
  - progval 4y ago
    > At that point you've just reimplemented a less-standard version of matrix with extra steps though. There are IRCv3 specifications that allow this richer experience, and they are at least as standard as Matrix. Check out https://ergo.chat/ https://ergo.chat/ with modern clients like https://sr.ht/~emersion/goguma/ https://sr.ht/~emersion/goguma/ (Android), https://git.sr.ht/~emersion/gamja/ https://git.sr.ht/~emersion/gamja/ https://kiwiirc.com/ https://kiwiirc.com/ (web), or https://git.sr.ht/~taiite/senpai https://git.sr.ht/~taiite/senpai (TUI) > but in practice using your enhanced server from an unenhanced client will always be painful IRCv3 normally makes sure new specs don't make it worse for older clients. Could you give me some examples to see if we can fix that?
    - lmm 4y ago
      > There are IRCv3 specifications that allow this richer experience, and they are at least as standard as Matrix. "At least as standard" how? A substantial portion of the IRC comunity is actively hostile to the IRCv3 extensions, and in some cases prefer incompatible implementations of the same functionality; Matrix has nothing like that going on. And there seem to be more visibly independent implementations of Matrix than IRCv3. > IRCv3 normally makes sure new specs don't make it worse for older clients. Could you give me some examples to see if we can fix that? Speaking generically rather than IRCv3-specific, things like: server-side history extensions tended to mess up my client's history implementation (I'd end up with multiple copies of the same messages in my local logs, often with the wrong timestamps). And if you're in a conversation where people are using embedded gifs, then fundamentally you'll always be a second-class citizen if you're trying to participate in that with a client that can't display embedded gifs. (Or for a more serious example, SSO access control; you just can't do that in a nice way if the client doesn't support it). This kind of thing is what killed the Slack IRC gateway, and it comes back to the first point, because it's ultimately more of a social issue than a technical one: a substantial portion of the IRC community uses clients that don't support these things not because they can't but because they're hostile to the very idea of having embedded gifs or SSO in IRC.
donio 4y ago
The world has also moved beyond just text 20 years ago and we were all supposed to switch to Jabber/XMPP. And yet here I am using IRC as much as ever. If I end up using Matrix it will probably be from my favorite IRC client through some kind of gateway, just like all the IM protocols that have come and gone over the decades.
- neoromantique 4y ago
  Nothing wrong with that, hooray for open standards that welcome bridging and interconnectivity (I'm looking at you, Discord). But you have to admit, irc is a tiny tiny part of IM usage popularity wise, and it's not for no reason.
- Groxx 4y ago
  People still use Usenet, which doesn't mean it's superior to http+html.

The world has moved beyond where just text is sufficient, IRC as a protocol is no longer relevant, sad but true. And I say that as a regular on multiple IRC networks, some through Matrix bridge.

LinuxBender 4y ago

For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server. [1] - https://github.com/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge [2] - https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/ [3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ [4] - https://convos.chat/ https://convos.chat/ [5] - https://www.mumble.info/ https://www.mumble.info/ [6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration

neoromantique 4y ago
Thank you for the links, I prefer to use Matrix(Element on mobile and gomuks in cli on workstations), I also use weechat for certain networks that don't allow bridging with matrix, I also bridge slack into same weechat. But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now, no matter how many shiny web interfaces we put on top of it, so embracing the actually open platform that has a chance of gaining any traction is a no-brainer.
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now Agreed. I still use it when I need a quick way to chat. That and Devzat SSH chat. I can fire up NGIrcd in about 3 minutes and most of that time is dealing with LetsEncrypt. UnrealIRCD is my preferred IRCD but the configuration is more involved so I don't bother since most people moved to Discord. Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately?
  - neoromantique 4y ago
    >Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately? Sorry, I don't know if I'm being honest :) The one I run is used by just few people. Matrix isn't so "internal community" focused like Mastodon in its federation.
lmm 4y ago
> For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. At that point you've just reimplemented a less-standard version of matrix with extra steps though. Your protocol has become heavyweight and non-standard (you could argue it degrades gracefully to IRC, but in practice using your enhanced server from an unenhanced client will always be painful), you're holding state on the server in the same way you were worried about (and without the mitigation of E2EE)...
- progval 4y ago
  > At that point you've just reimplemented a less-standard version of matrix with extra steps though. There are IRCv3 specifications that allow this richer experience, and they are at least as standard as Matrix. Check out https://ergo.chat/ https://ergo.chat/ with modern clients like https://sr.ht/~emersion/goguma/ https://sr.ht/~emersion/goguma/ (Android), https://git.sr.ht/~emersion/gamja/ https://git.sr.ht/~emersion/gamja/ https://kiwiirc.com/ https://kiwiirc.com/ (web), or https://git.sr.ht/~taiite/senpai https://git.sr.ht/~taiite/senpai (TUI) > but in practice using your enhanced server from an unenhanced client will always be painful IRCv3 normally makes sure new specs don't make it worse for older clients. Could you give me some examples to see if we can fix that?
  - lmm 4y ago
    > There are IRCv3 specifications that allow this richer experience, and they are at least as standard as Matrix. "At least as standard" how? A substantial portion of the IRC comunity is actively hostile to the IRCv3 extensions, and in some cases prefer incompatible implementations of the same functionality; Matrix has nothing like that going on. And there seem to be more visibly independent implementations of Matrix than IRCv3. > IRCv3 normally makes sure new specs don't make it worse for older clients. Could you give me some examples to see if we can fix that? Speaking generically rather than IRCv3-specific, things like: server-side history extensions tended to mess up my client's history implementation (I'd end up with multiple copies of the same messages in my local logs, often with the wrong timestamps). And if you're in a conversation where people are using embedded gifs, then fundamentally you'll always be a second-class citizen if you're trying to participate in that with a client that can't display embedded gifs. (Or for a more serious example, SSO access control; you just can't do that in a nice way if the client doesn't support it). This kind of thing is what killed the Slack IRC gateway, and it comes back to the first point, because it's ultimately more of a social issue than a technical one: a substantial portion of the IRC community uses clients that don't support these things not because they can't but because they're hostile to the very idea of having embedded gifs or SSO in IRC.

donio 4y ago

The world has also moved beyond just text 20 years ago and we were all supposed to switch to Jabber/XMPP. And yet here I am using IRC as much as ever. If I end up using Matrix it will probably be from my favorite IRC client through some kind of gateway, just like all the IM protocols that have come and gone over the decades.

neoromantique 4y ago
Nothing wrong with that, hooray for open standards that welcome bridging and interconnectivity (I'm looking at you, Discord). But you have to admit, irc is a tiny tiny part of IM usage popularity wise, and it's not for no reason.
Groxx 4y ago
People still use Usenet, which doesn't mean it's superior to http+html.