4 ms·

IRC is nice, but it is very bare. I would somewhat understand if you mentioned Jabber, but even then Matrix is a superior choice these days.

superkuh 4y ago
IRC isn't bare. You're just looking at it wrong. IRC is the text communication layer of the internet which is the platform. Centralizing all functions into one protocol is not a great idea.
- neoromantique 4y ago
  The world has moved beyond where just text is sufficient, IRC as a protocol is no longer relevant, sad but true. And I say that as a regular on multiple IRC networks, some through Matrix bridge.
  - LinuxBender 4y ago
    For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server. [1] - https://github.com/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge [2] - https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/ [3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ [4] - https://convos.chat/ https://convos.chat/ [5] - https://www.mumble.info/ https://www.mumble.info/ [6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      Thank you for the links, I prefer to use Matrix(Element on mobile and gomuks in cli on workstations), I also use weechat for certain networks that don't allow bridging with matrix, I also bridge slack into same weechat. But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now, no matter how many shiny web interfaces we put on top of it, so embracing the actually open platform that has a chance of gaining any traction is a no-brainer.
      - LinuxBender 4y ago
        But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now Agreed. I still use it when I need a quick way to chat. That and Devzat SSH chat. I can fire up NGIrcd in about 3 minutes and most of that time is dealing with LetsEncrypt. UnrealIRCD is my preferred IRCD but the configuration is more involved so I don't bother since most people moved to Discord. Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately?
        neoromantique 4y ago
        >Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately? Sorry, I don't know if I'm being honest :) The one I run is used by just few people. Matrix isn't so "internal community" focused like Mastodon in its federation.
    - lmm 4y ago
      > For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. At that point you've just reimplemented a less-standard version of matrix with extra steps though. Your protocol has become heavyweight and non-standard (you could argue it degrades gracefully to IRC, but in practice using your enhanced server from an unenhanced client will always be painful), you're holding state on the server in the same way you were worried about (and without the mitigation of E2EE)...
  - donio 4y ago
    The world has also moved beyond just text 20 years ago and we were all supposed to switch to Jabber/XMPP. And yet here I am using IRC as much as ever. If I end up using Matrix it will probably be from my favorite IRC client through some kind of gateway, just like all the IM protocols that have come and gone over the decades.
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      Nothing wrong with that, hooray for open standards that welcome bridging and interconnectivity (I'm looking at you, Discord). But you have to admit, irc is a tiny tiny part of IM usage popularity wise, and it's not for no reason.
    - Groxx 4y ago
      People still use Usenet, which doesn't mean it's superior to http+html.
- Gigachad 4y ago
  Why is it not a great idea? It’s what every other platform has done for over a decade now and it’s working great. It’s absurd that I shouldn’t be able to send someone an image inline or make a call in a group chat.
  - superkuh 4y ago
    And now the server is hosting images and has to police that or it gets shut down. And suddenly content moderation is #2 priority for the service, behind #1 profit, but well ahead of providing a space for communities.
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      You have to police illegal content even if it’s just links. That’s why torrent sites get shut down constantly. Curating and sharing links is the same as hosting. And I’m quite happy to be on a platform which doesn’t share or host this content.
      - superkuh 4y ago
        Nope. No one has to or is policing the links people chat about on IRC. Why? Because the server isn't saving state and hosting it. It's all in people's clients. It cuts the gordian knot of content moderation.

superkuh 4y ago

IRC isn't bare. You're just looking at it wrong. IRC is the text communication layer of the internet which is the platform. Centralizing all functions into one protocol is not a great idea.

neoromantique 4y ago
The world has moved beyond where just text is sufficient, IRC as a protocol is no longer relevant, sad but true. And I say that as a regular on multiple IRC networks, some through Matrix bridge.
- LinuxBender 4y ago
  For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server. [1] - https://github.com/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge [2] - https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/ [3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ [4] - https://convos.chat/ https://convos.chat/ [5] - https://www.mumble.info/ https://www.mumble.info/ [6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration
  - neoromantique 4y ago
    Thank you for the links, I prefer to use Matrix(Element on mobile and gomuks in cli on workstations), I also use weechat for certain networks that don't allow bridging with matrix, I also bridge slack into same weechat. But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now, no matter how many shiny web interfaces we put on top of it, so embracing the actually open platform that has a chance of gaining any traction is a no-brainer.
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
      But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now Agreed. I still use it when I need a quick way to chat. That and Devzat SSH chat. I can fire up NGIrcd in about 3 minutes and most of that time is dealing with LetsEncrypt. UnrealIRCD is my preferred IRCD but the configuration is more involved so I don't bother since most people moved to Discord. Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately?
      - neoromantique 4y ago
        >Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately? Sorry, I don't know if I'm being honest :) The one I run is used by just few people. Matrix isn't so "internal community" focused like Mastodon in its federation.
  - lmm 4y ago
    > For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. At that point you've just reimplemented a less-standard version of matrix with extra steps though. Your protocol has become heavyweight and non-standard (you could argue it degrades gracefully to IRC, but in practice using your enhanced server from an unenhanced client will always be painful), you're holding state on the server in the same way you were worried about (and without the mitigation of E2EE)...
- donio 4y ago
  The world has also moved beyond just text 20 years ago and we were all supposed to switch to Jabber/XMPP. And yet here I am using IRC as much as ever. If I end up using Matrix it will probably be from my favorite IRC client through some kind of gateway, just like all the IM protocols that have come and gone over the decades.
  - neoromantique 4y ago
    Nothing wrong with that, hooray for open standards that welcome bridging and interconnectivity (I'm looking at you, Discord). But you have to admit, irc is a tiny tiny part of IM usage popularity wise, and it's not for no reason.
  - Groxx 4y ago
    People still use Usenet, which doesn't mean it's superior to http+html.
Gigachad 4y ago
Why is it not a great idea? It’s what every other platform has done for over a decade now and it’s working great. It’s absurd that I shouldn’t be able to send someone an image inline or make a call in a group chat.
- superkuh 4y ago
  And now the server is hosting images and has to police that or it gets shut down. And suddenly content moderation is #2 priority for the service, behind #1 profit, but well ahead of providing a space for communities.
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    You have to police illegal content even if it’s just links. That’s why torrent sites get shut down constantly. Curating and sharing links is the same as hosting. And I’m quite happy to be on a platform which doesn’t share or host this content.
    - superkuh 4y ago
      Nope. No one has to or is policing the links people chat about on IRC. Why? Because the server isn't saving state and hosting it. It's all in people's clients. It cuts the gordian knot of content moderation.