7 ms·

The Matrix is my last hope for a free internet.

superkuh 4y ago
Really? Not IRC? Matrix is so heavy in terms of the protocol. It has almost all the state stored on the server instead of the client. That directly leads to legal/societal issues and now the server has to deal with. Unlike IRC which is basically just a bunch of sockets and IPs passing data without storing state. And that's not even getting into the computational and network problems moving and saving all that state causes as addressed in this very update about how they're trying to mitigate the architectural problems I just mentioned. But they'll only be mitigations. And the legal/social problems will still exist and since everyone (ie, 99%) of people use the Riot.im/Element.io matrix.org homeserver that means social/legal pressures can be easily applied. I like Matrix. I even use it for video chat because of the sars-cov-2 pandemic. But it is no hope for freedom.
- neoromantique 4y ago
  IRC is nice, but it is very bare. I would somewhat understand if you mentioned Jabber, but even then Matrix is a superior choice these days.
  - superkuh 4y ago
    IRC isn't bare. You're just looking at it wrong. IRC is the text communication layer of the internet which is the platform. Centralizing all functions into one protocol is not a great idea.
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      The world has moved beyond where just text is sufficient, IRC as a protocol is no longer relevant, sad but true. And I say that as a regular on multiple IRC networks, some through Matrix bridge.
      - LinuxBender 4y ago
        For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server. [1] - https://github.com/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge [2] - https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/ [3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ [4] - https://convos.chat/ https://convos.chat/ [5] - https://www.mumble.info/ https://www.mumble.info/ [6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration
        neoromantique 4y ago
        Thank you for the links, I prefer to use Matrix(Element on mobile and gomuks in cli on workstations), I also use weechat for certain networks that don't allow bridging with matrix, I also bridge slack into same weechat. But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now, no matter how many shiny web interfaces we put on top of it, so embracing the actually open platform that has a chance of gaining any traction is a no-brainer.
        LinuxBender 4y ago
        But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now Agreed. I still use it when I need a quick way to chat. That and Devzat SSH chat. I can fire up NGIrcd in about 3 minutes and most of that time is dealing with LetsEncrypt. UnrealIRCD is my preferred IRCD but the configuration is more involved so I don't bother since most people moved to Discord. Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately?
    - Gigachad 4y ago
      Why is it not a great idea? It’s what every other platform has done for over a decade now and it’s working great. It’s absurd that I shouldn’t be able to send someone an image inline or make a call in a group chat.
      - superkuh 4y ago
        And now the server is hosting images and has to police that or it gets shut down. And suddenly content moderation is #2 priority for the service, behind #1 profit, but well ahead of providing a space for communities.
        Gigachad 4y ago
        You have to police illegal content even if it’s just links. That’s why torrent sites get shut down constantly. Curating and sharing links is the same as hosting. And I’m quite happy to be on a platform which doesn’t share or host this content.
        superkuh 4y ago
        Nope. No one has to or is policing the links people chat about on IRC. Why? Because the server isn't saving state and hosting it. It's all in people's clients. It cuts the gordian knot of content moderation.
- woile 4y ago
  Has anyone taken a look at https://keet.io/ https://keet.io/?
  - ripdog 4y ago
    I inherently distrust anything with crypto bullshit built in.
    - nayuki 4y ago
      The product has cryptography and cryptocurrency built in. Which part do you distrust?
      - ripdog 4y ago
        In this context, "crypto bullshit" always refers to the currency.
- nabla9 4y ago
  You can use Matrix IRC Bridge.
  - superkuh 4y ago
    In pratice there is only the Riot.im/Element.io Matrix.org homeserver to Libera.chat IRC server bridge. And that bridge regularly disconnects people for being idle because storing and transferring state is so heavy.
    - anoa_ 4y ago
      The reason for this limitation is actually on the IRC side - we can only have so many users connected via Matrix, so we need to time out stale ones.
      - superkuh 4y ago
        I asked around and it seems like you're right about it not being a resource issue (network or computational). The issue is that the bridge is unstable and having tens of thousands of matrix.org users join/parting every now and then disrupts the IRC channels.
        progval 4y ago
        It's also mentioned in Libera's FAQ: > At our request, the EMS-hosted Libera.Chat bridge regularly prunes idle connections to minimize disruptions to IRC channels during bridge restarts. -- https://libera.chat/guides/faq#can-i-connect-with-matrix https://libera.chat/guides/faq#can-i-connect-with-matrix
    - neoromantique 4y ago
      What stops you from running your own bridge?
    - justaj 4y ago
      Not only that, but if you're disconnected and reconnected again, you lose your ident if your nickname contains uppercase characters or underscores: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1359 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1...
- jazzyjackson 4y ago
  The server/client dichotomy doesn't have to work in the typical "log into someone else's computer" way, you can run a homeserver locally and federate messages between servers.
  - superkuh 4y ago
    You can. Just like you can run an email mailserver. About about the same proportion of people do.
- Arathorn 4y ago
  If you watch the video, you'll see that we're making the client-server protocol crazy lightweight (https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=566 https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=566) and that we're adding the ability to remove servers entirely and go full P2P: (https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=2155 https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=2155). So you're working on stale data here. (Also, only about 35% of users we're aware of are on the matrix.org server, not 99%...)
- mixedCase 4y ago
  IRC is not a protocol that as it stands can meet modern user expectations of usability and functionality. If I can't use it to communicate with people at large, it is not a lot of freedom that is gained. Most of what you complain about societal pressures either apply to IRC (access to specific servers) or outright fail IRC by default by not providing the feature (state).
- thiht 4y ago
  > Unlike IRC which is basically just a bunch of sockets and IPs passing data without storing state To be honest this is probably reason #1 why people stopped using IRC. We want to see the messages that were sent while we weren't here. Yes I know what a bouncer is, no this is not a good solution. IRC as a protocol is simple and elegant but as a product it doesn't meet today's users expectations at all. And you can't just say users expectations are wrong and they should just align with what IRC provides, it doesn't work like that.
once_inc 4y ago
'The' Matrix, or 'Matrix'? I've been slowly getting wow'ed by the current developments in Nostr, which could be a great, new open protocol for social media. The native implementation of lightning network payments, and the ability to follow paid relays without needing to be bound to them is pretty cool.

Really? Not IRC? Matrix is so heavy in terms of the protocol. It has almost all the state stored on the server instead of the client. That directly leads to legal/societal issues and now the server has to deal with. Unlike IRC which is basically just a bunch of sockets and IPs passing data without storing state. And that's not even getting into the computational and network problems moving and saving all that state causes as addressed in this very update about how they're trying to mitigate the architectural problems I just mentioned. But they'll only be mitigations. And the legal/social problems will still exist and since everyone (ie, 99%) of people use the Riot.im/Element.io matrix.org homeserver that means social/legal pressures can be easily applied. I like Matrix. I even use it for video chat because of the sars-cov-2 pandemic. But it is no hope for freedom.

neoromantique 4y ago
IRC is nice, but it is very bare. I would somewhat understand if you mentioned Jabber, but even then Matrix is a superior choice these days.
- superkuh 4y ago
  IRC isn't bare. You're just looking at it wrong. IRC is the text communication layer of the internet which is the platform. Centralizing all functions into one protocol is not a great idea.
  - neoromantique 4y ago
    The world has moved beyond where just text is sufficient, IRC as a protocol is no longer relevant, sad but true. And I say that as a regular on multiple IRC networks, some through Matrix bridge.
    - LinuxBender 4y ago
      For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine. Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server. [1] - https://github.com/thelounge https://github.com/thelounge [2] - https://thelounge.chat/ https://thelounge.chat/ [3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ [4] - https://convos.chat/ https://convos.chat/ [5] - https://www.mumble.info/ https://www.mumble.info/ [6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration
      - neoromantique 4y ago
        Thank you for the links, I prefer to use Matrix(Element on mobile and gomuks in cli on workstations), I also use weechat for certain networks that don't allow bridging with matrix, I also bridge slack into same weechat. But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now, no matter how many shiny web interfaces we put on top of it, so embracing the actually open platform that has a chance of gaining any traction is a no-brainer.
        LinuxBender 4y ago
        But this doesn't change the fact that irc is obscure minority now Agreed. I still use it when I need a quick way to chat. That and Devzat SSH chat. I can fire up NGIrcd in about 3 minutes and most of that time is dealing with LetsEncrypt. UnrealIRCD is my preferred IRCD but the configuration is more involved so I don't bother since most people moved to Discord. Out of curiosity since I have never used Matrix, how many clients can one node/server simultaneously support approximately?
  - Gigachad 4y ago
    Why is it not a great idea? It’s what every other platform has done for over a decade now and it’s working great. It’s absurd that I shouldn’t be able to send someone an image inline or make a call in a group chat.
    - superkuh 4y ago
      And now the server is hosting images and has to police that or it gets shut down. And suddenly content moderation is #2 priority for the service, behind #1 profit, but well ahead of providing a space for communities.
      - Gigachad 4y ago
        You have to police illegal content even if it’s just links. That’s why torrent sites get shut down constantly. Curating and sharing links is the same as hosting. And I’m quite happy to be on a platform which doesn’t share or host this content.
        superkuh 4y ago
        Nope. No one has to or is policing the links people chat about on IRC. Why? Because the server isn't saving state and hosting it. It's all in people's clients. It cuts the gordian knot of content moderation.
woile 4y ago
Has anyone taken a look at https://keet.io/ https://keet.io/?
- ripdog 4y ago
  I inherently distrust anything with crypto bullshit built in.
  - nayuki 4y ago
    The product has cryptography and cryptocurrency built in. Which part do you distrust?
    - ripdog 4y ago
      In this context, "crypto bullshit" always refers to the currency.
nabla9 4y ago
You can use Matrix IRC Bridge.
- superkuh 4y ago
  In pratice there is only the Riot.im/Element.io Matrix.org homeserver to Libera.chat IRC server bridge. And that bridge regularly disconnects people for being idle because storing and transferring state is so heavy.
  - anoa_ 4y ago
    The reason for this limitation is actually on the IRC side - we can only have so many users connected via Matrix, so we need to time out stale ones.
    - superkuh 4y ago
      I asked around and it seems like you're right about it not being a resource issue (network or computational). The issue is that the bridge is unstable and having tens of thousands of matrix.org users join/parting every now and then disrupts the IRC channels.
      - progval 4y ago
        It's also mentioned in Libera's FAQ: > At our request, the EMS-hosted Libera.Chat bridge regularly prunes idle connections to minimize disruptions to IRC channels during bridge restarts. -- https://libera.chat/guides/faq#can-i-connect-with-matrix https://libera.chat/guides/faq#can-i-connect-with-matrix
  - neoromantique 4y ago
    What stops you from running your own bridge?
  - justaj 4y ago
    Not only that, but if you're disconnected and reconnected again, you lose your ident if your nickname contains uppercase characters or underscores: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1359 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-irc/issues/1...
jazzyjackson 4y ago
The server/client dichotomy doesn't have to work in the typical "log into someone else's computer" way, you can run a homeserver locally and federate messages between servers.
- superkuh 4y ago
  You can. Just like you can run an email mailserver. About about the same proportion of people do.
Arathorn 4y ago
If you watch the video, you'll see that we're making the client-server protocol crazy lightweight (https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=566 https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=566) and that we're adding the ability to remove servers entirely and go full P2P: (https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=2155 https://youtu.be/eUPJ9zFV5IE?t=2155). So you're working on stale data here. (Also, only about 35% of users we're aware of are on the matrix.org server, not 99%...)
mixedCase 4y ago
IRC is not a protocol that as it stands can meet modern user expectations of usability and functionality. If I can't use it to communicate with people at large, it is not a lot of freedom that is gained. Most of what you complain about societal pressures either apply to IRC (access to specific servers) or outright fail IRC by default by not providing the feature (state).
thiht 4y ago
> Unlike IRC which is basically just a bunch of sockets and IPs passing data without storing state To be honest this is probably reason #1 why people stopped using IRC. We want to see the messages that were sent while we weren't here. Yes I know what a bouncer is, no this is not a good solution. IRC as a protocol is simple and elegant but as a product it doesn't meet today's users expectations at all. And you can't just say users expectations are wrong and they should just align with what IRC provides, it doesn't work like that.

once_inc 4y ago

'The' Matrix, or 'Matrix'? I've been slowly getting wow'ed by the current developments in Nostr, which could be a great, new open protocol for social media. The native implementation of lightning network payments, and the ability to follow paid relays without needing to be bound to them is pretty cool.