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> Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usag

> Isn’t it the same as using a term like “spy” with significant outside connotations rather than more common technical terms like “telemetry” or “anonymous usage data collection”? "Spying" is not an analogy, it's a verb that describes the act of collection information that you aren't authorized to collect. In case of opt-out telemetry without user consent, it's a perfectly fitting word. One could also argue that "telemetry" is under-descriptive, since it does not account for the fact that it's turned on by default. > Similarly, “deception” implies malice or subterfuge. Deception is the act of giving people false information for the sake of achieving a goal, the ethics of the underlying motive is irrelevant.

acdha 4y ago
Again, the reason I think “spy” is an editorial choice to express an opinion is that in common English usage that work implies hostile intent. It's not just that some data is being recorded but that it's done with the understanding and desire to harm the subject. Contrast with “telemetry”, which is value-neutral and simply describes the mechanism of collecting data and transmitting it to be recorded somewhere else. I don't think it's appropriate to use “spying” because there's no evidence of hostility here and considerable evidence to the contrary in the form of the public discussion and the proposal starting with various mechanisms limiting what is collected, how frequently it's reported, and preventing covert manipulation of the telemetry system.
- bheadmaster 4y ago
  The very act of collecting information without consent is the act of hostility. The rest of the technicalities are irrelevant, because none of them have anything to do with consent. There is no class of data whatsoever that is okay to collect without users' consent.
  - acdha 4y ago
    This is an ideological statement. You’re free to believe it’s true but it’s not how those words used in normal discourse and you’ll probably find your evangelism more productive if you clearly state this up front.
    - bheadmaster 4y ago
      > This is an ideological statement. Yes, privacy is an ideological problem. The fact that the HN crowd now believes it's okay to collect data without others' consent makes me wonder how cooked the frog really is nowdays.
  - hardware2win 4y ago
    With this definition everything is hostile towards you, thus makes this concept not so useful. If I do see you in shop, then Im collecting informations about you, yet you didnt consent to me anything. Everything is up to what data is sent. Crash log? Fine All File names on my pc? Bad
    - bheadmaster 4y ago
      > If I do see you in shop, then Im collecting informations about you, yet you didnt consent to me anything. This isn't a good analogy. By going in public I'm implicitly consenting to being seen, because it is impossible for me to go in public without being seen - being seen is a necessary condition for the action of me going out in public. There's no such necessity when it comes to running a development tool on my own machine in my own home.
      - hardware2win 4y ago
        Still, good telemetry benefits users and does not violate privacy.

acdha 4y ago

Again, the reason I think “spy” is an editorial choice to express an opinion is that in common English usage that work implies hostile intent. It's not just that some data is being recorded but that it's done with the understanding and desire to harm the subject. Contrast with “telemetry”, which is value-neutral and simply describes the mechanism of collecting data and transmitting it to be recorded somewhere else. I don't think it's appropriate to use “spying” because there's no evidence of hostility here and considerable evidence to the contrary in the form of the public discussion and the proposal starting with various mechanisms limiting what is collected, how frequently it's reported, and preventing covert manipulation of the telemetry system.

bheadmaster 4y ago
The very act of collecting information without consent is the act of hostility. The rest of the technicalities are irrelevant, because none of them have anything to do with consent. There is no class of data whatsoever that is okay to collect without users' consent.
- acdha 4y ago
  This is an ideological statement. You’re free to believe it’s true but it’s not how those words used in normal discourse and you’ll probably find your evangelism more productive if you clearly state this up front.
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    > This is an ideological statement. Yes, privacy is an ideological problem. The fact that the HN crowd now believes it's okay to collect data without others' consent makes me wonder how cooked the frog really is nowdays.
- hardware2win 4y ago
  With this definition everything is hostile towards you, thus makes this concept not so useful. If I do see you in shop, then Im collecting informations about you, yet you didnt consent to me anything. Everything is up to what data is sent. Crash log? Fine All File names on my pc? Bad
  - bheadmaster 4y ago
    > If I do see you in shop, then Im collecting informations about you, yet you didnt consent to me anything. This isn't a good analogy. By going in public I'm implicitly consenting to being seen, because it is impossible for me to go in public without being seen - being seen is a necessary condition for the action of me going out in public. There's no such necessity when it comes to running a development tool on my own machine in my own home.
    - hardware2win 4y ago
      Still, good telemetry benefits users and does not violate privacy.