4 ms·

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island b

by treis 4y ago

Kitchen Sinks are required to have an outlet within 2 feet. I redid our kitchen and we ran into that issue. There were outlets on every corner of the island but all slightly farther than 2 feet away. Lucked out and our rough inspector let it slide. Finish inspector called it out but luckily they let it slide because the rough inspector let it slide. Theoretically they could have made me rip it all out. Spooked me enough to make me not get permits for the next renos. Too many arbitrary rules that can make projects spiral without any real safety improvement.

Teever 4y ago
I don't understand your thought process in this situation at all. Things worked out for you when you followed the rules, and because they worked out, you're not going to follow the rules in the future?
- treis 4y ago
  I lucked out that the first inspector was lazy and/or incompetent. He was there for 5 minutes and spent 4 of them chatting about his kid's baseball game. If I had the second inspector first he would have made me rework the design.
  - mcguire 4y ago
    By "rework the design" you mean move one outlet six inches closer to the sink?
pkulak 4y ago
That code is a mish-mash of a real safety thing (we don't regulate extension cords at all, so we try to make sure there are outlets everywhere and you don't need them... especially around water, like a sink!) and a general effort to make sure that if you buy a house, you don't figure out later that it's a piece of shit. My favorite examples are minimum length of extra wire in a box, and a neutral required. I don't think those have to do with safety at all, but holy crap am I glad they exist, as someone who didn't build their own house, or have my inspector take the covers off every box before we bought our current house. Now, when you sell your house, is the next person gonna be a bit miffed that there are no outlets in the kitchen anywhere near the sink? What about when they go to install a smart outlet and there's no neutral, and 1cm of hot wire to work with? That's gonna suck too, but you didn't permit anything and went off your gut so... fuck them I guess?
- treis 4y ago
  Like I said, there's an outlet on every corner of the island about 2.5 feet from the sink. And on the other kitchen sink there's one immediately on each side. Nobody is getting fucked.
  - pkulak 4y ago
    I'm more commenting on: > Spooked me enough to make me not get permits for the next renos. I have no idea what you're going to decide is up to your own personal code going forward.
    - mcguire 4y ago
      This is the fun part about buying a house in a rural area with no real regulation enforcement. Part of the house is 70 years old. Another part is an addition built by a previous owner. Every maintenance item is a journey of adventure and discovery. There's no less than three breaker panels in the house itself and it's never immediately clear which panel goes to which outlet/fixture/appliance. I gave up installing a faucet in the kitchen and called a plumber. He cut the PVC monstrosity out from the cabinet and took it back to the shop to show his buddies. You know that little drain line that comes from the AC to handle condensation? It is not a good idea to have the other end of it in the crawl space.
Swenrekcah 4y ago
Given modern information presentation technology, every single limit like that in the codes should be linked to a document detailing why the limit is what it is, with a short summary and preferably videos of what happens when the limit is and is not adhered to. I don’t doubt there are great reasons for most of the rules, and the best way to get compliance is to explain why they’re there. And some may be overzealous indeed and then they would hopefully be adjusted.
flavius29663 4y ago
How is that a bad safety measure? if not close enough, people will use extension cords, which will be significantly more dangerous than proper outlets.
- treis 4y ago
  There's an outlet 2.5 feet away. No need for an extension cord.
  - mikeyouse 4y ago
    Okay, what if it was 3 feet away? What about 3.5 feet away? At which point do they stop being overzealous? From a top-level comment: Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. You built something that wasn't to code and now you're sad that they told you that you did it wrong, but allowed it to stand because in their judgement it wasn't critical enough to have you rework it? The IRC is freely available, just read the code and follow it! It's dead simple. They even have pictures: https://cdn-codes-pdf.iccsafe.org/bundles/document/new_document_images/1722/IRC2021P1_Pt08_Ch39_SecE3901.4.1_FigE3901.4.1.jpg https://cdn-codes-pdf.iccsafe.org/bundles/document/new_docum...

by treis 4y ago

Teever 4y ago

I don't understand your thought process in this situation at all. Things worked out for you when you followed the rules, and because they worked out, you're not going to follow the rules in the future?

treis 4y ago
I lucked out that the first inspector was lazy and/or incompetent. He was there for 5 minutes and spent 4 of them chatting about his kid's baseball game. If I had the second inspector first he would have made me rework the design.
- mcguire 4y ago
  By "rework the design" you mean move one outlet six inches closer to the sink?

pkulak 4y ago

That code is a mish-mash of a real safety thing (we don't regulate extension cords at all, so we try to make sure there are outlets everywhere and you don't need them... especially around water, like a sink!) and a general effort to make sure that if you buy a house, you don't figure out later that it's a piece of shit. My favorite examples are minimum length of extra wire in a box, and a neutral required. I don't think those have to do with safety at all, but holy crap am I glad they exist, as someone who didn't build their own house, or have my inspector take the covers off every box before we bought our current house. Now, when you sell your house, is the next person gonna be a bit miffed that there are no outlets in the kitchen anywhere near the sink? What about when they go to install a smart outlet and there's no neutral, and 1cm of hot wire to work with? That's gonna suck too, but you didn't permit anything and went off your gut so... fuck them I guess?

treis 4y ago
Like I said, there's an outlet on every corner of the island about 2.5 feet from the sink. And on the other kitchen sink there's one immediately on each side. Nobody is getting fucked.
- pkulak 4y ago
  I'm more commenting on: > Spooked me enough to make me not get permits for the next renos. I have no idea what you're going to decide is up to your own personal code going forward.
  - mcguire 4y ago
    This is the fun part about buying a house in a rural area with no real regulation enforcement. Part of the house is 70 years old. Another part is an addition built by a previous owner. Every maintenance item is a journey of adventure and discovery. There's no less than three breaker panels in the house itself and it's never immediately clear which panel goes to which outlet/fixture/appliance. I gave up installing a faucet in the kitchen and called a plumber. He cut the PVC monstrosity out from the cabinet and took it back to the shop to show his buddies. You know that little drain line that comes from the AC to handle condensation? It is not a good idea to have the other end of it in the crawl space.

Swenrekcah 4y ago

Given modern information presentation technology, every single limit like that in the codes should be linked to a document detailing why the limit is what it is, with a short summary and preferably videos of what happens when the limit is and is not adhered to. I don’t doubt there are great reasons for most of the rules, and the best way to get compliance is to explain why they’re there. And some may be overzealous indeed and then they would hopefully be adjusted.

flavius29663 4y ago

How is that a bad safety measure? if not close enough, people will use extension cords, which will be significantly more dangerous than proper outlets.

treis 4y ago
There's an outlet 2.5 feet away. No need for an extension cord.
- mikeyouse 4y ago
  Okay, what if it was 3 feet away? What about 3.5 feet away? At which point do they stop being overzealous? From a top-level comment: Everyone - everyone - is certain that the codes are all overzealous and their little thing needs an exception. You built something that wasn't to code and now you're sad that they told you that you did it wrong, but allowed it to stand because in their judgement it wasn't critical enough to have you rework it? The IRC is freely available, just read the code and follow it! It's dead simple. They even have pictures: https://cdn-codes-pdf.iccsafe.org/bundles/document/new_document_images/1722/IRC2021P1_Pt08_Ch39_SecE3901.4.1_FigE3901.4.1.jpg https://cdn-codes-pdf.iccsafe.org/bundles/document/new_docum...